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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to consider aa a dangerous cult?

923 replies

Kirkers · 29/01/2010 03:47

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

OP posts:
MIFLAW · 20/06/2011 16:30

run123

Have looked at your link and here's my review.

It's about America, where both AA and the context in which it operates are vastly different to AA over here.

Again.

MIFLAW · 20/06/2011 16:33

"bed people" = "bad people"

Jamboreetomorrow · 20/06/2011 16:33

greatest respect, miflaw, but he/she has a point. members of the WI, Church, Girl Guides and Kwikfit are not anonymous.

on iphone.

no crb checks

run123 · 20/06/2011 16:43

Miflaw-AGAIN- AA's literature states it is not their opinion for people not take their meds-ans also admit thatt hey are aware of the FACT that AA members do tell others not too. Yet they support groups that state this in meeting brochures even though they are stating things AA says at least is not there policy. If AA had concerns they would warn groups that if they continue to practice to tell people not to take their meds-that they will remove their meeting from their list and go even further by telling them they are a AA meeting and not allowed to use the name AA. But AA looks the other way-as usual.

You say you know what you are talking about-but I beg to differ. If you knew what you were talking about you know that AA has many problems with sexual abuse and financial abuse etc,that they are dangers to people that attend on many different levels.That I know to be a FACT.

merlincat · 20/06/2011 16:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MIFLAW · 20/06/2011 16:44

No, that's true - though I am not clear on how anonymity is relevant here. The cases under discussion involve vulnerable people befriending others who then abuse their trust; or about sponsors, which have been selected by their sponsees, giving poor advice.

When was the last time YOU - or anyone else here - ran a CRB check on a friend before bringing them home? Or on someone you were seeking overtly non-professional advice from? If you are like me, you use your own judgement.

You would probably use your own judgement even more so if the group where you met had suggested you form NO intimate relationships in the first year - because you are vulnerable - and to read a series of books that explicitly point out the limitations of sponsors, how AA members are not perfect and not doctors, etc. If you decided to ignore all that advice you would probably be even more aware of the need to apply caution and discretion, don't you think?

Run123 talks about the truth - and the truth is this. AA addresses problem drinking. There are no membership requirements apart from a desire to stop drinking and you can read that on the wall of every meeting you attend. As a result there may be bad people there and there will certainly be vulnerable people there.

MIFLAW · 20/06/2011 16:49

run

Why don't you tell us all about the cases that you personally have witnessed?

It is a result of AA traditions that a group is an AA group if it says it is. There is no possibility of withholding the AA name - it's not a franchise like Wimpy.

And groups do not tell people anything - people do. What do you do if somemad bastard goes round every meeting in the area telling newcomers silly stories like this - shu down AA in that area till everyone plays nice?

You are wilfully misrepresenting the facts about how AA operates. Please stop unless you can back it up with things that you have observed.

run123 · 20/06/2011 16:50

Miflaw- you are something else! if you look at the sites.

www.stinkin-thinkin.com

www.nadaytona.org

www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com

These sites cover AA as a global issue,including the UK. There are many UK stories on the stinkin-thinkin site,including the other 2. Stinkin-thinkin is a very well respected site as are the others.Stinkin-thinkin.com has been around the longest of the 3 and the largest I know of it's kind.
So again-This is a UK problem,and I suggest you stop telling people it is not a UK issue when we have proof that it is.

fairydoll · 20/06/2011 16:50

Yep definitely a cult what with those yellow vans and jumpleads.oh wait.....

merlincat · 20/06/2011 16:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jamboreetomorrow · 20/06/2011 16:56

it is alcoholics anonymous that run123 is talking about. not cars.

run123 · 20/06/2011 16:57

Miflaw-AA can withold a group being an official meeting.
You are clueless.
I will giving you MORE later as I have work to do and do not have time
to continue to be insulted by Miflaw.

A reminder-We are discussing a HOST of dangerous aspects of AA being a cult.We have just touched the surface.So get ready!

merlincat · 20/06/2011 16:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

run123 · 20/06/2011 17:00

Thank you jamboree.Some people treat AA like their children-that they can do no wrong. Well folks-hate to burst your bubble-but sad to say-AA has many many problems that we will be discussing more in depth as time permits.

MIFLAW · 20/06/2011 17:00

I have looked at those sites.

The vast majority of their examples refer to American AA, for the very good reason that the conditions allowing such abuses to happen are those that prevail in American AA (or NA, so if anything even less relevant.) As to the small minoority of cases that are relevant to the UK, I have already explained, clearly and logically, how it would be unfair and foolish to blame these on AA when they are clearly down to isolatedindividuals either using AA as camouflage or failing to heed direct warnings that a typical (and I use the word typical for a reason - advice not to get into a relationship is typical, advice not to take prescription meds is NOT typical) AA meeting would give them.

run123 · 20/06/2011 17:01

merlincat-you said it -not me.

balloonballs · 20/06/2011 17:02

Those sites are nothing more than proof that AA is not for everyone. You can find "evidence" for just about anything on t'internet.

merlincat · 20/06/2011 17:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MIFLAW · 20/06/2011 17:16

"Miflaw-AA can withold a group being an official meeting." Yes it can - on the basis that it breaks with one or more of AA's 12 Traditions (or, presumably, if it was involved as a group with illegal activities.) It cannot dictate to the Group conscience which is essentially what you are suggesting.

"You are clueless" - I do have the benefit of having set foot in a UK AA meeting which, it would appear, you have not.

"I will giving you MORE later as I have work to do and do not have time
to continue to be insulted by Miflaw." I don't think I've insulted you. You tried to tell me what to do, with no authority - I told you to fuck off. Start it as "a thread about a thread" in AIBU and let the jury decide if you like.

"We are discussing a HOST of dangerous aspects of AA being a cult.We have just touched the surface.So get ready!" You seem to be assuming that you have some sort of leadership or mentoring role on here. In this, you are delusional. As you possibly know, when people try that sort of thing in AA THEY tend to get told to fuck off and mind their own fucking business, too.

I see a pattern developing - is that where the bitterness is really coming from? Did someone oust you from your tea-making commitment?

livingindc · 20/06/2011 17:48

personal experience in meetings on both sides of the ocean - just because people stop drinking doesn't mean they're not a*holes (or perverts, or self righteous idiots, or dry drunks).

some meetings/groups are cult-like, yes - but definitely not all and it's IGNORANT to plead otherwise.

seriously, be quiet.

run123 · 20/06/2011 17:53

Miflaw-do you not have a better command of the English language than to have to resort to foul language?

It looks to me that you are the one trying to take on a mentoring role all over mumset.

I am not mentoring-I am leetting the world know of the dangers of AA and NA. People can read and decide for themselves.

Wouldnt telling people stop taking meds AGAINST the belief system(at least on paper) of corporate AA go against the traditions? But that is only one of many things that AA looks the other way about.

run123 · 20/06/2011 17:58

Balloonballs- Actually if you dig deeper in the sites-it is not just AA is not for everyone.It speaks of a multitude of dangerous problems with AA.

@Livingindc-good point.Not every meeting may be run like a cult-but AA
corporate and the BB is designed to encourage cult behavior.Not every meeting takes the bait.But the problem is the BB is written to try and do so.

CloverCarr · 20/06/2011 18:16

Run123, help me understand.

Why is the BB designed to encourage cult behaviour? What does "AA corporate" aim to achieve by encouraging it?

MIFLAW · 20/06/2011 18:33

"Miflaw-do you not have a better command of the English language than to have to resort to foul language?" Thank you for your concern, I have an excellent command of English. And part of that language is what you so tweely call "the F word". I do not "have to resort" to it - I choose to use it for its accepted purpose, i.e. to underline strength of feeling.

So, thanks very much, but I will use it when I like, where I like, and as often as I like. And, should I ever feel the need for guidance on the use of English, be it in terms of vocabulary, register, tone or grammar, I will not be troubling you for it, so you may now stand down.

As to me "taking over a mentoring role all over Mumsnet" - well, I offer advice where it is wanted and on subjects where I have direct personal experience. Match that if you can. Certainly, I do not tell people in advance what "we" will be discussing in the future.

On to the matters that are actually relevant to the thread. I am not actually sure what "Wouldnt telling people stop taking meds AGAINST the belief system(at least on paper) of corporate AA go against the traditions?" means as it is a bit unclear (perhaps you need to address your own command of the English language?)

But perhaps this will help. The Traditions (which you may read for free on AA websites and which are in the second half of 12 Steps and 12 Traditions) are largely about how we conduct ourselves as an organisation and are based on experience. It is not our way to tell anyone what they can or can't do, and in any case to do so would require maintaining a list of sponsors etc, which would not fit either with anonymity or the roots-level organisation of AA. So it follows that we cannot punish people, throw people out (they might be saying silly things because they are sick individuals, and help sick individuals is what we try to do) or otherwise tell them what to do. Inidividuals in all walks of life say silly, nasty, even evil or harmful things and are often protected by "the law" when doing so - what we need instead to control is whether the body in which they do so does anything at all to address that.

In AA, we trust the common sense of the Group to rein in the extremists - and, based on my experience, in 99% of cases, this works (I have yet to hear ANYTHING about your experience - forthcoming, presumably?) When it doesn't work, it is normally effectively dealt with by applying common sense and judgement. Bear in mind that the members of AA, to get to AA alive, have shown the ability to apply at least SOME common sense and judgement even when pissed to the wide, so it is perfectly reasonable to assume that this capacity does not leave them when they put down the drink and dry out.