to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

MIFLAW whilst I am 100% behind your views (posted when this threaed started - used to be MumofOscar) I have reported your post 14:33:17 for use of disablist language which i think is detracting from your point.

As far as this thread goes, i can't believe its been brought back TBH. It was a shitty arguement in the first place. AA works for a lot of people (myself included) and those saying otherwise, fair enough, it didn't work for you - so what?? That doesn't make it evil. And those of you quoting the 95% it doesn't work for - where are you getting those figures?? I've been a member of AA for a very long time and never once either kept or saw any record of who was there or wasn't; who wasn't sober and who wasn't.

And to restate what MIFLAW said about the child, while that is obviosly a very sad story, surely anybody bringing lots of random strangers back to their house on a regular basis is taking a risk, whether their AA members or fucking churchmen!!

*they're not their obviously

To expand their base and expand their income in part.

Where does the income go?

We do not know how much of a stranger these men were to this woman.It is possible she built a trust with longtime sober men who prey on women.Also known as a form of 13 stepping. AA wants you to put your trust into AA and your sponsor. If AA warned people of the dangers-that would be taking responsibility.But they do not want the bad publicity.They want people to maintain a false sense of security.

Because of AA and NA's lack of taking responsibility sexual and financial abuse is rampant and is a growing problem.

If you read the Orange papers you will find the stats on it not working for 95% of the people.

One can debate about if AA is actually evil. But in my opinion a group or organization that refuses to do anything about the rapes of women and children are not out of the realm of having a darkside.

A group that advises other members to not take meds-knowing this is against AA's official position on the matter-is going against what AA want to represent.

if you had a AA group that plugged robbing people-AA could choose to terminate the relationship with that group.They have the power-they choose not to use it.

Afternoons - absolutely fair point re disablist language, it was an unfortunate slip of whatever the equivalent of tongue is without thinking about what the term actually means. I apologise to anyone who was offended, and will try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

In part to the paid personnel at headquarters at AA that make HUGE amounts of money.

"A group that advises other members to not take meds-knowing this is against AA's official position on the matter-is going against what AA want to represent." That's exactly it, though. As someone who is very much inside AA, I hear as much AA gossip as anyone. But at the same time I hold no postion of authority in "Corporate AA" (whatever that is - I think they might share a flat with the International Jewish conspiracy and the people who filmed the moon landing in a BBC studio) so I have no reason at all to lie. and I tell you that I have never heard of a SINGLE GROUP advising that. I have heard of individuals doing it - and I have heard the majority speak against those individuals and say that they are wrong. So where are these rogue groups?

Similarly, where is the rampant sexual and financial abuse that, as a long-term insider, I have never heard of, not even once? Where have you seen it? Please name the meetings (in standard format, time day, place and nickname, e.g. 12 noon Monday meeting in Bigchester, "Alcoholic Unicyclists In Recovery - Keep It Simple").

We would all LOVE to know.

Unless, of course, you're calling me a liar?

Wow-Miflaw-when someone agrees with you,you are considerate about foul language.When someone does not agree with you-you act a bit different,huh?

"In part to the paid personnel at headquarters at AA that make HUGE amounts of money." Show us the figures, please! Based, of course, on AA's audited accounts.

Not at all. If she had pulled me up on using the word "fuck", I would have told HER to fuck off too. And when people occasionally put up those twee notices in AA meetings, "bad language often offends but its absence never does" I regularly ignore those too.

But she didn't. She pulled me up on using a word which is offensive to a particular group of people - and a word that, even as I posted, I regretted using. So I apologised; not to her specifically, but to the people who might reasonably have been offended.

You're REALLY going to need to sharpen up if you want to get into point scoring.

www.gmanews.tv/story/75915/Girl-kept-detailed-diary-of-rapes-by-mothers-boyfriend

Again-just because you have not seen it does not mean it is not happening.

Dont you know that AA has a headquarters? What is with you?
They are a corporation.

www.gmanews.tv/story/75915/Girl-kept-detailed-diary-of-rapes-by-mothers-boyfriend

Sorry -meant to make this a link. I will send more info later.

Miflaw-I suggest you do the same sharpening up.

Forgive me, I haven't read all the links posted on this thread.

Presumably they include a copy of the organisation's accounts? These would of course be public, given that it's a registered charity and a limited company, and as such, subject to both English company law and regulation by the Charities Commission.

Again, apologies for not looking it up myself, but what has been the response of the police to the incidents of abuse which are apparently documented in the reports?

I have just come across this thread. I haven't read the whole thing, just had a quick skim.

I have been sober for 10 years. If I hadn't been for AA I wouldn't have made it. I now attend a Friday meeting for women in the city where I live.

I have been to meetings all over the UK and have found some of them weird and some of them absolutely delightful. I have friends who have had men attempt to 13th step them but fortunatey a quick 'fuck off' did the trick.

On the whole it has been a very positive experience for me. I have heard the 'cult' accusations before but can honestly say that this has never been my experience. I am also an atheist and my lack of belief in a christian god has never been held against me at AA and it has not stopped me from staying sober.

Our Friday women's group is so normal and boring that I am slightly tickled to think that some people out there think we are all crazed cult members.

"Dont you know that AA has a headquarters? What is with you?
They are a corporation."

No - they are a registered charity.

Even if they were a corporation, you (with your excellent command of English) will agree that referring to "corporate AA" is a little more loaded than saying "AA is a corporation."

You have then quoted a news story - and it is interesting that the only site you can find reporting this item of news with relevance to the UK and the US is based in the Phillipines - which says that men who attended AA meetings raped a child.

How is that relevant to AA per se? A bloke at my judo club used to abuse children who actually attended that club - that doesn't call for a root-and-branch investigation into the evils of judo, does it? If this woman had met them in her local pub, would you now be starting threads about "The cult of buildings with a picture of a red lion hanging outside"? What is AA meant to have done in this situation except not check the identity of every single one of its members and then make that information available to any interested party? Seriously, what other organisations do that - especially when (I'll say it again) CHILDREN ARE NOT WELCOME IN AA IN THIS COUNTRY UNLESS THEY THEMSELVES ARE SELF-AVOWED ALCOHOLICS.

Again, I ask you - tell us about abuse you have witnessed and how it relates to AA.

I think it is obvious that AA is different on both sides of the Atlantic. The UK side is obviously addressing the cult aspects in that it has set up a special site for them to be recorded, so at least in Britain they are open about the problem. I am not sure that Run knows that in Britain it is openly acknowedged to be a problem.

I don't think that judo clubs, Churches and the WI and the boy scouts are comparable because people in those settings would not be anonymous. That is a false comparison. The CRB checks were bought in to ensure that people with convictions are not allowed near vulnerable people, including adults. In Britain, all people working with vulnerable people, including vulnerable adults, have to be CRB checked. Except, apparently, in AA. I suspect that aacultwatch will be lobbying to address this, too.

I think that a case of child abuse in a judo club WOULD call for a root and branch investigation if the Judo club were not seen to be dealing with it, like the Catholic Church in Ireland. The problem for the Pope was not the abuse itself, but the cover up.

AA in the UK has a cap on donations (I don't know what it is). I don't know if they have that in the US. The people making money out of it are those who run rehabs and 'sober houses'. I don't know if there are sober houses in the UK. People fresh out of rehab are encouraged to go AA meetings; I would describe such people as vulnerable but aacultwatch is doing its best to warn people about anonymous predators.

CRB checked = people with past convictions are not allowed to work with children or vulnerable adults

SCHEDULE 4 REGULATED ACTIVITY
PART 2 REGULATED ACTIVITY RELATING TO VULNERABLE ADULTS
7 (1) Each of the following is a regulated activity relating to vulnerable adults if it is carried out frequently by the same person or the period condition is satisfied?
(a) any form of training, teaching or instruction provided wholly or mainly for vulnerable adults;
(b) any form of care for or supervision of vulnerable adults;
(c) any form of assistance, advice or guidance provided wholly or mainly for vulnerable adults;
(d) any form of treatment or therapy provided for a vulnerable adult;

This IS a glaring anonaly in the CRB system, and the only one I can think of, but I am sure it is being addressed.

I do know that when I was researching AA as part of my medical studies I read in a Medical Psychology/Sociology text book that they couldn't comment on the effectiveness of AA as they refuse to take part in any controlled trials or release any data. Therefore their effectiveness has never been proven scientifically, any evidence that they work is purely anecdotal. Which is worrying as people often get referred to 12 step programmes by HCPs in areas where there are not NHS programmes available.

I am now reluctant to post a link to the effectiveness of AA in case I get jumped on!

Just because a member of the Catholic Church in Ireland swears that they were not abused by a priest, does not mean that it doesn't happen. That is crazy logic.