to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

Who is OP what does that mean?

Here is another helpful link about exposing the dangers to children
that attend meetings.Please dont let pride just brush it off.

www.nadaytona.org

www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com

www.stinkin-thinkin.com

Please keep an open mind.
All very excellent websites that might explain in more detail our point of view.

Yes YABU and completely bonkers. Of course it would not be that surprising that there is some crazy behaviour and people with inappropriate boundaries in aa - they are addicts fgs, and the fact it only works for 5% if that is correct is also unsurprising, as addiction is notoriously difficult to recover from and they are self selected as people who can't recover alone or feel they need help or whatever. But, if it works for 5000 people out of 100,000 that's still potentially 5,000 lives bettered.

The 95,000 other people need to know that there are alternatives.If people fail at AA/NA or are turned off about the 12 steps they have options to go to for help. People should not make people feel that the 12 step is the only
way and if you dont follow the steps you will die. No you can live by trying other options people find more suitable for them.

Addicts to have boundary issues-that is why there are the problems that exist in these groups.

run123 - are you from the States? Your use of Mom makes me think so.

If so, then you should be aware that in the UK, courts do not mandate AA at all, and people are counselled in AA here not to socially mix with people they meet, not to breach anonymity, and our sponsor system is somewhat different.

So you may be talking from a perspective which is not relevant to the UK. I can't comment on whether its relevant in the US.

(namechange here)

Run123, this particular thread (am I being unreasonable) is the most argumentative on mumsnet. It is a sort of unwritten rule that people can be much more forthright here than eg, on the baby naming threads.

The 'OP' means the person who originally posted, in this case 'Kirkers'. (I don't know what it stands for!)

In the UK (as far as I know) the courts don't send criminals to AA instead of to jail, as they do in America, which I agree is fairly disturbing. They do send people who are on probation to AA, and the probationers have to get someone in the group to sign their 'chit'. So, yes, you might be sitting next to someone on probation in a meeting. But, I think that meetings attended by people on probation are marked, so you could avoid those particular meetings. I would imagine, although I don't know, that these would be drink-drivers and directly drink-related offences, rather than anyone who pleads the alcohol card for whatever their crimes are.

I don't know how the sponsorship system is different here but I think British AA puts less emphasis on the religious aspect.

One million people were treated in hospital for alcohol related issues so it is a big problem here and I think that the more we talk about it the better.

I wouldn't say it is a cult, although American AA certainly does seem to have many many cult-like characteristics. It is my impression that in America AA and rehab in general is used as a sort of public mea culpa for general anti-social behaviour; eg Tiger Woods, that Weiner politian, and members are a bit 'praise the Lord', which is not a very British way.

This is really interesting, not just about AA, but about cults in general:
www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

I'd say that 'institutional AA' sounds very much like a cult, and the 'sober house' system they have (where the resident is completely controlled) is also very cult like. But I don't think there are sober houses in the UK, not that I have heard of.

I DO think that mumsnet has cult like characteristics; people try to leave and they are put under pressure to stay. Often people leave but they find that they have become so dependent that they have to come back. Mumsnet also has its own shibboleths, eg Zombie planning, the penguin saga, moldies, that would make no sense to a non-cult member.

:)

I have had personal experience with AA and I chose to leave. I left because I was unfortunate in going to meetings that were ran by incredibly zealous people. If I couldn't attend because of childcare or family things I was told that my sobriety came first, not my children, I was told that only 'God' could take away my problems, that my husband didn't need to know about what was said in meetings and, worst of all, that I should throw away my mental health medication and admit that there is no such thing as mental illness, only alcoholism. I was unfortunate. I wish I had found better meetings, of which I know there are many. My experiences would never ever make me stop anyone going if they really felt it would help. However, if someone had concerns I would tell them my story.

Thebossofme- basically people given a chit card for probation is similiar to
the states for people on probation. my message of safety concerns is
a global concern,as these issues are widespread. Some areas more than others.UK is not excluded.

Jamboree tomorrow-Thank you for your thoughts on the matter.Now I know what OP is!

lovecorrie-There are many stories like yours that people are told to not takr their meds for mental issues.This has resulted in very poor outcomes where some have taken their own lives. This is not AA's official position on record-but they state they are aware of this taking place in meetings and again look the other way.

The children come 2nd to sobriety and going to meetings. With the internet now-many are choosing online-meetings that give more privacy and flexibility
to stay at home with their family and children.

This thread was fucking annoying when Kirkers started it last year and it's fucking annoying now. A few oddballs banging on about how weird American AA is and therefore how we in the UK should avoid this dangerous cult.

There are MASSIVE differences between US AA and UK AA; and many of the differences (attitude to recruitment of members - UK extremely anti this; children in meetings - UK extremely anti this; sponsorship seen as essential to recovery - far less in the UK; religion as necessary part or "given" of programme - not so in UK; okay to break anonymity of self or others in press, radio or film - UK extremely anti; advertising or publicity for AA - UK extremely anti this; UK being used as compulsory "punsihment" by court services - UK extremely anti this) are what this thread seems to hinge on.

Much of the rest is based on an unrealistic assumption that former drunks, on entering AA, are given a complimentary halo, wings and a sponge to wipe their past clean. Of COURSE there will be criminals in many AA meetings because drunks do bad things; but then, before they came to AA, many of these criminals were haunting local pubs just like yours and keeping quiet about their past. It's also fair to say that most of the non-criminals in AA (and in pubs) are far from perfect.

how about we all play a new game where the AA bashers start talking about things that they have seen, with their own eyes, in UK AA meetings and explaining what, if anything, bothers them?

"Thebossofme- basically people given a chit card for probation is similiar to
the states for people on probation."

No it isn't. It works on a completely different basis (it is optional for the drunk concerned); it involves far fewer people (in three years of running meetings I never gave out a single chit); and the support within AA for this system is far less unanimous (every time it comes up it generates enormous opposition, on the basis that UK AA does not approve of people being made to attend AA, as if you do not have a desire to stop drinking you have not satisfied the single requirement for membership!)

PLEASE stop posting bollocks.

Lovecorrie

So sorry that you ran into such a collection of freaks and wrong'uns in AA - happily they are the minority.

I would say, in general, that AA is a way of looking at things that helps many people. But it is NOT an alternative reality. If you hear people saying things that sound actually harmful or insane, then they are probably not to be given the credence you would give to a sane individual; and, if you find a whole MEETING of the buggers, do report it to Cultwatch, UK AA's acknowledgement that there are some weirdos out there and that that is A Bad Thing.

Miflaw-People are made to feel to trust their sponsors.If your sponsor and your group tell you to go off meds and they are your only support group-that has an emotional impact on them.You want to say it is not AA(-but you are in denial). Thus many have stopped and many have suffered.AA like I said-is aware of this common practice yet does not tell sponsors not to say this very harmful statement. i think they really believe it -but because of liability concerns they cannot go on the record stating this.Actions speak louder than words.-dont they?

Good one Miflaw-telling to report AA as a cult. Thank you!
You can stop using the F word here-it is not appreciated.
if you do not like this annoying thread than go on all the other
threads that you do like.

Miflaw- Did you not read about the little girl who was raped in England by
multiple AA members? This is a UK problem as well. You are doing harm
by telling people otherwise. PLUS-How many times do I have to state that AA has admitted problems with sexual predatory behavior. I am not making this up.I am not a freak. I speak the truth-and you dont like the truth.

I've no real experience of aa myself, and I haven't read the whole thread, but some of this sounds alarming. Are your strong feelings based on personal experiences, run123?

It is very alarming indeed! That is why I would like to see people be more
educated on this issue.I dont want to see anymore children or children being victimized.

If you are interested read this thread and the links that have been provided.

Hi MIFLAW. I have reported that particular group to cultwatch. As I said, I was unfortunate . I know there are some amazing meetings and people who have succeeded.

Were you not able to find amazing meetings in your area?

"Miflaw-People are made to feel to trust their sponsors."

People are not "made" to feel anything. That is why I am in AA and not drinking and have not had a sponsor for five years.

"If your sponsor and your group tell you to go off meds and they are your only support group-that has an emotional impact on them." The same is true if your only support group is the voices in your head, which is the case for many drinking alcoholics. also, of course, AA advises you to get to lots of meetings and to share - so, if you follow all advice equally, even assuming you have no input yourself, you will hear a range of opinions on these key questions.

"You want to say it is not AA(-but you are in denial)." No I am not. I am in AA and therefore know what I am talking about. My guess is that you are not in AA and therefore do not know what you are talking about.

AA like I said-is aware of this common practice yet does not tell sponsors not to say this very harmful statement."

AA does not tell sponsors to say anything because that is not how AA works. A sponsor is just another member of AA, ideally selected by the alcoholic him/herself on the basis of being a good "fit". However, AA literature is very, VERY clear on this matter - medical opinion comes from trained medical practitioners, not from fellow alcoholics.

"Actions speak louder than words.-dont they?" Indeed they do - and the action of the vast majority of AA members I have met - which is a lot -
is to mind their own business where medical opinion is concerned, or at least to qualify advice with "this is purely based on my own experience."

revolutionscoop-here is a website that would explain the dangers of AA and also for those that go safety precautions.

www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com

Please review it,it is wel run site.

"Good one Miflaw-telling to report AA as a cult. Thank you!" I said nothing of the sort and you know it. Continue to twist my words and I will report you to Mumsnet.

"You can stop using the F word here-it is not appreciated." And you can fuck off. Unless you are part of Mumsnet HQ I do not need your permission to use any words at all. So mind your own fucking business.

"if you do not like this annoying thread than go on all the other
threads that you do like." Yes, I could. Or I can do some good by confronting poisonous lies with facts. I choose to do the latter, but thanks for the tip.

"Miflaw- Did you not read about the little girl who was raped in England by
multiple AA members? This is a UK problem as well. You are doing harm
by telling people otherwise. PLUS-How many times do I have to state that AA has admitted problems with sexual predatory behavior. I am not making this up.I am not a freak. I speak the truth-and you dont like the truth."

So - newsflash - there are paedophiles in AA. As there are in the Church, the WI, and among the ranks of the KwikFit fitters. Only a fool would deny that.

The issue would be, are they proportionally over-represented and is it directly linked to their membership of that body? I can't speak for the Church, the WI or KwikFit but, in the case of AA, the answer is "no".

Such problems as AA has with sexual predators is almost exclusively between adults as a result of bed people (who are everywhere) exploiting vulnerable people (who are everywhere). It is standard advice in AA - men for men, women for women. I (as a man) take no offence if a woman does not want to give me her number or accept mine and would always suggest to her she gets a female sponsor (if she wants one at all.)

As has been made abundantly clear here and elsewhere, children are NOT WELCOME in AA in Britain unless (in extremely rare cases) they identify themselves as alcoholics and want to change. Children exposed to predators through AA happens because their parents invite the worng people into their houses, the same as the majority of abuse outside AA.