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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to consider aa a dangerous cult?

923 replies

Kirkers · 29/01/2010 03:47

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

OP posts:
hiddenhome · 18/06/2011 23:31

What is orange papers?

I googled, and it just came up with fruit or paper related stuff Confused

hiddenhome · 18/06/2011 23:34

Why would a 7 year old be attending AA meetings?

Hulababy · 18/06/2011 23:44

Safety1 has posted this same pr similar message on several threads on MN. I am assuming spam?

working9while5 · 19/06/2011 00:13

This is ridiculous.

I went to some Alateen groups and Al-Anon in my early 20's.

It involved very ordinary people sitting around and chatting a bit, sometimes getting emotional, often having a laugh and as someone else has said, weak tea and biscuits.

Any group can become abusive, of course. Individuals make and shape a group dynamic that can act for good or harm. Alcoholics are not the most mentally healthy of folk. It is hardly surprising that when groups of people with serious issues convene that negative dynamics may arise. I find it hilarious to read reports where people realise 2-3 weeks into AA that they are "being manipulated". It is a voluntary group and its purpose relates to alcohol addiction. If you didn't have an alcohol addiction, you wouldn't need to be there in the first place and if you do have one you are not ready to face, well it's easy to cry "cult", isn't it?

I am not really someone who believes in God, but Christ, the conspiracy nonsense on this thread is ridiculous. As an organisation, it was established at a time when most people in the West were fervent believers and believed God could get them to a better place. There is nothing inherently sinister about belief and it's a very peculiar notion that anything involving God must somehow be a ploy to gain mind-control over individuals and steal their cash.

working9while5 · 19/06/2011 00:15

And on the liver function issue: my father has been a chronic alcoholic consuming up to a bottle of vodka a day for the last 15 years. He is diabetic and has a heart bypass but he has a perfectly healthy liver. It really says nothing about the extent of his alcoholism.

ByTheBeardOfZeus · 19/06/2011 00:33

My dad would be dead or lying in a gutter somewhere if it wasn't for AA, and my mum would've killed herself a long time ago. They're not the fucking Illuminati.

Hammy02 · 19/06/2011 09:24

"Alcoholics are not the most mentally healthy of folk". What a fucking cheek. It is an addiction. Would you say all overweight people are not the most mentally healthy of folk? Or smokers? It is an addiction.

LoveMyOscar · 19/06/2011 09:43

Do you mean they try to brainwash you while fixing your car, or on the phone to the call centre, or do they take you to a centre while your car is being fixed and meddle with your brain? Why would they do this and what shit do they try to put in your mind? I'm glad I take the bus I think...

LoveMyOscar · 19/06/2011 09:45

Oh, it's alcoholic's anonymous? sorry...Blush

Gastonladybird · 19/06/2011 10:33

Agree with Zeus- helped my dad when nothing else did. It may not suit allbbut a cult!?

TidyDancer · 19/06/2011 10:39

Very old thread, but the OP is batshit crazy. I've never been in AA and I hope to never require it, but one of my best friends almost certainly owes her life to attending meetings and following the principles.

And yes, I have been to meetings as an observer, and have been welcomed by all concerned. Lovely people.

working9while5 · 19/06/2011 12:47

Yeah fucking cheek indeed to suggest that alcoholics are a dysfunctional group in terms of interaction! Madness! How dare I!

Alcoholism absolutely produces dysfunctional interpersonal behaviour and to suggest otherwise is just political correctness gone mad. Smoking and overeating do not have the same impact on interpersonal behaviour or on brain function.

Terraviva · 19/06/2011 14:17

AA is definitely, no question about it, a cult. I have said this for years, and it's good to finally see it being discussed more openly. I've only read the first and last pages of the thread, but can imagine the debate inbetween.

There are some good points about AA - there are many people who have successfully replaced their dependence on alcohol with a dependence on meetings. This has no doubt saved many lives and marriages. I'm guessing many people on the thread have said how it helped or saved their dad / sister / friend. Yes it does help many people.

However, to those who say it's just people sitting round drinking weak tea and telling stories: no it isn't. It is a cult, by any way that you choose to define cult, it meets the criteria. Just because it's a cult doesn't necessarily make it evil though. I haven't read these documents that the OP mentions, I just speak from personal experience. There are positives and negatives to the organisation.

I was a member of AA for about 2 years, about 15 years ago. I had eating disorders as a teenager and after a few years treatment via the NHS, started attending a 12-step programme for food (called OA). We were encouraged to attend AA meetings as well, because there were thousands more AA meetings than OA meetings, and any 12-step programme is the same in principle. Although it could be said that I 'abused alcohol', it was only in the same way that just about every other young adult does... there's no way by any stretch of the imagination I was an alcoholic, but within a couple of months I was identifying as an alcoholic and a fully-fledged member. Attending conferences. Trying to recruit new members. I did this because I genuinely though AA was this amazing organisation who could help anybody.

As a vulnerable person, you are welcomed into this ready-made family with open arms. You go from being socially isolated to being in the middle of this engaging group of people. However, you are very much encouraged to cut ties with non-AA members. You are controlled by your sponsor to a frightening degree. Total obedience is required.

This is hard to write about because everything has a flip side. There are some wonderful individuals acting as sponsors, helping others to overcome their addiction to alcohol and rebuild relationships with family & friends. There are others though who actively seek to isolate & control. I have seen people, one a very good friend, be completely pulled out relationships with everyone on the outside world, including family, by the manipulation of their sponsor.

I left because I didn't need that social support any more. It was difficult though, as your identity becomes very wrapped up in being 'different' and needing outside help. I'd made the decision I didn't want that identity anymore and made a massive effort to change every aspect of my life. (It worked by the way :)) (Oh yes, and because I wasn't actually an alcoholic!!! Although everyone who drinks is an alcoholic by AA standards...)

I'm going to have to stop now as I could go on and on writing about my experiences in AA!!!

One more thing - although it's called a '12-step' programme there is actually a well known 13 step, called 'Fuck a Fresher'. This refers to how some of the old hands are real sexual predators, actively preying on attractive & vulnerable new-comers. It is one of the 'bonuses' of having been in the organisation for a long time...

run123 · 19/06/2011 15:24

I have heard about the 13 stepping in AA too. Here is a website that discusses it.I too am glad to see people talking about this more.

www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com

Many people have been helped in AA,but many have been abused as well.
I think AA is a cult.If you say anything negative about them you get so much hostility from people. I am glad to see this thread is here.

run123 · 19/06/2011 15:30

working9while5-very good point! my thoughts exactly. people want to act like it is just regular folk sipping tea and hugging. But many courts also mandate criminals that people go to meetings.Many of them are still not sober and are on the lookout for fresh meat instead.

This polital correctness has got way out of hand. I see they deleted posts from someone that was trying to share concerns about the safety of AA, why would MN do that? I thought this was a thread about if people thought AA was a cult and their opinions?

run123 · 19/06/2011 15:37

Terraviva-I noticed to that members seemed to replace lcohol addiction with addiction of the meetings. The oldtimers taking advantage of newcomers is terrible. Alot of sexual abuse goes on at AA meetings. Women need to be careful when attending meetings and dont give your phone number out or tell people where you live!

GabbyLoggon · 19/06/2011 15:52

these cults need watching

piedpiper4 · 19/06/2011 15:58

I have only read the first and last page of the thread, but am very interested to hear about this.
My best friend is an alcoholic, and has joined AA. On the surface I have been pleased and proud that she has done something to help with her addiction. Further along the line, and I'm now concerned that she has swapped one addiction for another. She is no longer reliant on alcohol, but is reliant on God and what he can do for her. This is a worry for me, not because I'm atheist - I'm not, but because of her level of dependency. She too has changed dramatically in personality, and I'm wary on an intrinsic level as to why.

run123 · 19/06/2011 16:31

@piedpiper-AA encourages complete dependency on them.
They want you to think that even after you have quit for decades-that you will surely die without them. They have a high divorce rate in AA.Many people stop spending as much time with their family and instead start devoting all spare time to the group.

run123 · 19/06/2011 16:42

www.orange-papers.org is a good read for those that question
Alcoholics Anonymous. Really eye opening.

Terraviva · 19/06/2011 17:47

Run123 - Yep, totally swapping one addiction for another. This was even openly admitted in the groups I went to. That blog is quite scary! I didn't realise that sexual abuse was so widespread. I knew it went on, but not to that degree.

Piedpiper - The difficulty you'll have is that if you voice any concerns about AA to your friend, she will start to pull away from you and retreat further into it.

Do people who are in a cult ever know they are in a cult? Genuine question... None of the AA members I knew (including myself at the time) would have considered themselves in a cult.

Terraviva · 19/06/2011 18:12

I've just looked at that orange-papers website, and have only looked at the '12 biggest secrets of AA', and my god... It's all completely true. I recognise everything he (or she) is saying. Those of us that didn't believe in God were encouraged to consider the group our 'higher power', but God is mentioned ALL the time. And I never even properly considered how unsuccessful it actual was at keeping people sober!

I've even read the 'Big Book' - cover to cover, and engaged in the intellectual gymnastics you have to do to make yourself believe a lot of it. Fucking hell - I really was in a proper cult Shock. I'm remembering all sorts of crazy stuff now... What's the time? Gone 6pm... Right, I'm off for a Wine

run123 · 19/06/2011 18:42

terraviva-They say they are not religious but spiritual.It is obvious they are a religious organization. They have many problems with sexual and financial abuse.

Here is another site to check out.They would love to hear your story as well.

www.stinkin-thinkin.com

run123 · 19/06/2011 19:13

@Tidydancer- Oh you got love bombed too? That is part of the cult way. Make sure you feel welcome by hugging you,exchanging phone numbers etc.
But all that love bombing can-not always lead to sexual abuse. So be careful as an observer as well.There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in AA.

merlincat · 19/06/2011 19:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.