to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

Not an addict, but have been very close to one.

I'm wary of twelve step programmes - particularly the idea of admitting you are powerless and only god can help you. This seems a very dangerous admission because if you feel god has abandoned you, you've completely disempowered yourself.

Someone very close to me got dry at a Priory hospital which lasted several years until there was a death in the family which shocked her back into drinking She died shortly afterwards, far too young.

I really don't think there are any easy answers to alcoholism or any addiction - it always seems to be there lurking, but I am suspicious of twelve steps. Would be very interested in hearing more evidence about the research. Will have to look at these orange papers.

Carmen, thanks for reading and replying, especially as you clearly have some experience. Do look at the orangepapers. I don't know who wrote it (I'd love to know) but it does seem to be very well researched and referenced, and I have done a lot of cross checking.

The orangepapers prove the aa does a lot of harm and astonishingly little good. It claims to have 2 million members worldwide but I have just read somewhere else that half of those are coerced by the US legal system.

But why does it have such good PR when it doesn't work?

I would be incredibly grateful if you would give me your honest honest thoughts about the orangepapers and/or '12 Step Horror Stories'. At the moment, I would PAY to hear someone else's considered review.

It is, I note well, incredibly difficult to criticise, and defended to the hilt by its members, in common with all cults. Also, they never comment, so the organisation never has to answer the question, why do you claim that aa works when every experiment ever done indicates more harm than good.

YANBU. A few years back, when I was having psychotherapy for depression etc, my therapist, who was a "recovering alcoholic" tried to convince me to do a 3 months stint in a 12-stepping clinic (I never had any addiction problems, just depression). I read up on it and it scared the crap out of me.

Btw, I didn't even need the orange papers, just their own material was enough to convince me they're a cult.

Jeepers, thanks Widow Woman, thank you.
Can you explain the conspiracy of silence?
It is very interesting that your therapist, who is herself a cult member, was recruiting you. The final step is to go and find more members (again, a characteristic of any cult). Why does Scientology get such a bad press in comparison?

Did I mention the £10 billion treatment industry, largely based on the 12 step model? And in these treatment centres, the patients have talks from AA members, who will claim that it is the ONLY way, which is an outright, baldfaced, Utter lie. AA has a terrible success rate, even according to its own records.

It scares me too. It really does scare me the way its members are so glazed over and mystical. It is brainwashing.

The first Amazon review of '12 Step Horror Stories' contains the phrase, 'good men doing nothing'. Which has made me think that I don't want to do nothing anymore, I want people to know about it and talk about it and not treat it as though it is too sacred to criticise.

Thanks again, and well done you on not being a potential contributor to the next edition. Really well done you, because in a therapist/client relationship it would have taken some strength not to go along with it.

Please let me know what you read, and whether you have read the orange papers.

Jeepers, thanks Widow Woman, thank you.
Can you explain the conspiracy of silence?
It is very interesting that your therapist, who is herself a cult member, was recruiting you. The final step is to go and find more members (again, a characteristic of any cult). Why does Scientology get such a bad press in comparison?

Did I mention the £10 billion treatment industry, largely based on the 12 step model? And in these treatment centres, the patients have talks from AA members, who will claim that it is the ONLY way, which is an outright, baldfaced, Utter lie. AA has a terrible success rate, even according to its own records.

It scares me too. It really does scare me the way its members are so glazed over and mystical. It is brainwashing.

The first Amazon review of '12 Step Horror Stories' contains the phrase, 'good men doing nothing'. Which has made me think that I don't want to do nothing anymore, I want people to know about it and talk about it and not treat it as though it is too sacred to criticise.

Thanks again, and well done you on not being a potential contributor to the next edition. Really well done you, because in a therapist/client relationship it would have taken some strength not to go along with it.

Please let me know what you read, and whether you have read the orange papers.

Would anyone be kind enough to provide a link to the orange papers and/or 12 step horror stories, which are at morerevealed.com in the library section?

There are so many cases of alcohol or other addictions and it seems to affect most families somehow that I really feel people ought to know the truth.

I don't have personal experience of this but there is a history of alcoholism in my father's family. My aunt (lives in California) and her now partner have both followed the AA programme and have had success with it.

My father, however, has huge problems with alcohol but will have nothing to do with AA and not just because he doesn't really want help. My dad is a very intelligent man (for all his myriad faults) and he hated the "cult" like aspect of AA.

When I read OP I was thinking of AA -as in rival of RAC sorry

Joey - yes I thought that as well!

Thanks for replying. It is very cultish. It uses brainwashing techniques such as reciting together the same slogans before and at the end of every meeting. It is also extremely hostile to criticism. There is no graduation, you stay in it for life. There is active recruitment of new members, of course, just like any other cult. I just read someone on an aa website saying he felt down etc and realised he had to go and help 'suffering alcoholics', so he went to his local homeless hostel, told them aa meetings were the only answer, and come back with a vanful. A vanful of extremely vulnerable people who were then told to ATTEND 90 MEETINGS IN 90 DAYS, with identical brainwashing at each one. If they drink, then it is their own fault, if they don't drink, aa takes the credit and they are coerced very quickly to get actively involved.

There's another book called 'Cult or Cure'by Charles Bufe (free online) which examines the cult aspects very closely.

The Orange Papers
Cult or Cure
12 Step Horror Stories

Very uncomfortable reading for cult members guaranteed.

Why oh Why is this programme followed by 95% of treatment centres?

Again, thank you everybody.

I think it's a cult too.

mMy mate is a member and she has given up drink but she's abit evangelical about it and used to be very critical if I drank.

He actually been for 12 months now, but I definitely wouldn't say he is 'deprogrammed'. He is still as brainwashed as ever, but I do feel as thought I understand it better now. Heidi Fleiss said something interesting in the CBB house (sorry to lower the tone), she said it was like NA (narcotics anonymous; same model). This is because meetings are cosy and friendly and (I've read) becomes a replacement family who cannot be criticised in any way. This is called 'love-bombing' in cultwatching jargon.

He has agreed to talk about it for 15 minutes each day, which was only after I told him that I loved him etc, realised it would be difficult for him.

Having become something of an expert on the phenomenon, I would dearly like to know why is seems to be respected and floating above criticism. I would not dare criticise it in real life. Thanks for answering. I have found out a lot more about aa since that conversation. I did notice that one MNer advised that people DO NOT read the orange papers. This is typical of cult members. Fortunately, the internet means that ALL the information is out there.

The emperor is entirely undressed.

Good Riven, I wanted you to read it because I believe the David Cameron thing has given you the title Mumsnet royalty. I should imagine that you will find it compelling. Show it to an AA member if you want to see a similar reaction to a vampire seeing a crucifix.

I think you will appreciate that the people exposing AA are brave. There is simply no way one could do it in a group because everyone is either brainwashed or scared. But, of course, they don't know it.

I wonder what organisations like Relate have to say about it.

I meant dp has NOT been for 12 months, which is a great start.

I don't know about relate but I would imagine they would be quite careful. I think that the fact that there is no scientific basis for the 'programme' AT ALL is, I think, changing attitudes. But, because a very few are convinced that they have been cured by a supernatural being (Higher Power, really, really), it can sound like a convincing solution to a difficult problem. The PR had been incredibly good. Why don't more people speak out.

If the particular Relate counsellor is a cult member, that's completely different.

My mother is an alcoholic, and attended a few AA meetings in the past.

I have not read the orange papers or twelve step horror stories, but I will do when I have the time.

She absolutely did not fall for anything they told her, and was revolted by the "god" involvement. Whilst I am disappointed that alcohol is still destroying her, I do feel rather proud of her for having the strength of character to make her own mind up about it and to not want to have anything to do with something she fundamentally doesn't believe in.

Her brother is also an alcoholic and had a different experience with AA. He did stop drinking, but became very involved with AA, and changed beyond recognition, in rather a spooky brainwashed way.

Nowwhattodo. Please tell you mum about this thread. I really think it will make her realise how strong she has been and what an escape she has had, and that might help in itself.

Your brother's reaction, if you dare mention this to him, should prove that (like other cults) criticism of the cult is Strictly Not Allowed. Try it!

Thanks

I'm sorry, I am finding this difficult to take seriously. Is this is a pisstake?

Having been to several AA meetings as my DH is a member, I am finding it hilarious that you see them as cult-like and dangerous. They just sit around, drink hideously weak tea and share stories!

You have to ask yourself what is more dangerous. An alcoholic drinking to oblivion, destroying themselves and their family or an AA member, who seems a bit culty about this organisation that has saved them.

The AA is not a cult, don't be ridiculous. You have argued that it displays some of the characteristics of a cult but you could probably assign the same characteristics to any number of organisations. The higher power thing does not mean that you have to give yourself to a specific god. You don't have to do 90 meetings in 90 days. DH was never told to.

2nd hand experience here - my DH went to AA and stopped going after a few meetings. He told me he felt manipulated and that there was something insidious happening in the meetings.
I did some googling around and found the orange papers. Showed it to him and he said the penny dropped at that moment.

Incidentally, he has not relapsed since then - almost a year ago.

llareggub, please read the orange papers and tell us all what you think after that. I would absolutely love to hear. Read about the experiment where one group had aa treatment, one counselling and one nothing. The aa group had NINE times the binge drinking of the counselling group and FIVE times more than the control group.

Look at the statistics. Telling people they have a disease is completely unethical and what do you think all the repetition of powerlessness, except brain washing.

Please let me know what you think of the orange papers. Do you know that half of aa members are there under coercion (due to US legal system, which, thankfully, will probably change soon.

Its all in the orangepapers.com

I'll read your links.

My sis is attending AA. She's been 100% happier and if not completely sober since starting to go, then certainly far, far less drunk.

As far as I'm aware no money has changed hands.

She's a complete atheist and has no interest in the spiritual aspects of AA. She just wants to spend time with people who are struggling with the same problems that she is, and she's found that through AA.