to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

Kirkers,

My sister's life before she joined AA was so bloody grim that I probably would have welcomed her joining the Moonies, if it had meant she drank less.

She'd lost all her money, her self-respect and was destroying her health and personal relationships.

What more could AA take from her, even if it is a 'sinister cult'?

Of course its poor research. And if you spend enough time on the internet looking at information on cults you are going to find people that think the former Mother Therese's group is a cult, along with the NHS, all political organisations.....

Is your partner addicted ? Does he define himself as alcoholic? Are you in a relationship with someone who drinks heavily?

Someone in my family tried to stop drinking and AA was a route he tried.
He just couldn't get on with the 'god' thing so stopped going.

"I would be incredibly grateful if you would give me your honest honest thoughts about the orangepapers and/or '12 Step Horror Stories'. At the moment, I would PAY to hear someone else's considered review."

Really? Would you pay me? I wonder why?

is this the orange [apers?

i will read if i've got the right thing

"I also think it is very generous of all these people to put their research on the internet, free."

If they can't get their work published in a peer reviewed journal I don't think that one could consider it to be meaningful research.

Kirkers - not a member of AA, son't have any drink problem and still think you are talking nonsense.

The reality is that for some alcoholics, AA is not the answer. Does that mean we should criticise those for whom it provides a welcome support network whilst trying to recover from a devastating addiction? Absolutely not - it takes a HUGE amount of courage and bravery for addicts to admit they have a problem and reach out and ask for help, and, quite frankly, posts like yours are very ill-thought out if they influence even ONE person and stop them asking for the help that they would otherwise have sought (because for many, AA is the only route they have heard). Yes, there are aspects of AA that don't suit everyone, but to criticise the whole programme just smacks of breathtaking arrogance and ignorance.

Shame on you.

Stand and Deliver,
I am glad you wrote that because I was about to scroll back to find your name. I would not not not advise you to show your sister the op. She is obviously in an extremely vulnerable place and I take both your comments Extremely seriously.

I think (and obviously not knowing your sister etc) the fact that your sister has gone to AA is a massive step and I think that she will find a group of very warm, loving people who will be absolutely delighted to see her and cosset her a bit, give her hugs and make her feel a bit better, to find some space to get off the drinking treadmill. She will be encouraged to get a sponsor, another member of aa who will encourage her to read the Big Book and (crucially) be on the end of the telephone (poss. 24 hours, I don't know your group). This may help. I am not medically qualified.

She may encourage you to go to meetings to support her and then you will see yourself.

It would be nice if this could happen, the person could gain some perspective in a loving environment, and then move on. But if she 'recovers' she may feel, or be persuaded that aa is the key to her recovery and that if she leaves aa she will relapse.

There is tons of literature on the internet and there are other self help programmes. Smart and Rational Recovery are two others but I haven't experienced them.

I have a feeling that some people reach such a rock bottom that aa is the only place where they are embraced unless their family pays goodness knows for treatment in a treatment centre, which would probably involve the aa programme anyway.

It's very difficult. I unmedically advise you to educate yourself as far as you can. Sorry if that is little help and I am sure this appears inconsistent. (The fact that she is so vulnerable will mean she is vulnerable to being brainwashed but as you say, who cares?). If they would only stick at the emergency treatment and not imposing a medical model... but then there would be no one left. Educate yourself. AA works for around 5% of people. Maybe she will be one.
Sincere best wishes and thanks for reposting.

Yes, that's it Imsonottelling

And obviously what jeee says is right.

It isn't research by any definition that I understand it, it just seems to me to be a collection of quotes taken out of context by someone with an axe to grind.

Of course lots of people stop drinking of their own volition and haven't needed a support group.

That does not make AA and other support groups actively harmful which is what the term 'cult' suggests. I know no one 'brainwashed' or 'mystical' in AA. I only know recovering alcoholics or heavy drinkers who follow some steps to keep themselves safe.

OK
I am a member of Al-anon, which like AA is a 12 step support/recovery group. I started to attend meetings 8 years ago when dh's drinking had become unbearable to live with. I fully intended at that stage to separate from him and I was looking for support in what I was experiencing. What I learned there, through listening to other members share their various experiences was that I was trying to control dh's drinking and that my efforts were actually exacerbating the problem. I learned to leave dh to make his own decisions and started making more healthy ones for my own life. After about 18 months dh agreed to go to a residential treatment centre where he stayed for a month. The treatment centre used the Minnesota model of treatment which is based on the 12 steps and which is a well recognised and well respected model of treatment. Dh reluctantly agreed to attend weekly AA meetings after leaving the centre but his heart wasn't really in it and after a few months he relapsed. A cycle of sobriety and relapse followed which lasted for several years and I once again began legal proceedings. Eventually he sobered up and decided to give AA another shot. This time he was different and attended meetings regularly and started sharing at them. He was like a different person. Unfortunately he got complacent and had a very serious relapse which cost him his driving license and almost his life. It took him a full year to get his act together after that but thankfully he did get his act together. He now attends AA twice a week, on Thursdays and Sundays. He does this because the weekends were when he did most of his drinking and he finds the support on those two nights is important to him. He has made friends there and shares a similar camaraderie with them that he enjoyed with the lads in the pub. The only difference is that they no longer drink. I still attend Alanon and I find the support I get in all areas of my life is fantastic. There is no coercion to attend, if I don't go for a few weeks, there is no search party out wondering where I am. I find that when I attend meetings regularly I am more honest with myself and I take more responsibility for my actions. Dh says the same about his meetings. He is sober 19 months now. I know our life is immeasurably better as a result of these fellowships. Is it a cult? I don't think so anyway. All I know is that when dh is following the 12 steps he doesn't drink and when he stops going to meetings he drinks again and our life very quickly descends into chaos. I know a lot of families who would say the same that is proof enough for me that AA works for a lot of people. Of course it is not for everyone but there are other models of treatment which work too. It is not, IMO, the only way to get sober but it is an effective way for many people. Of course there will be zealots among it's members who feel that there is only one way and that is their way. Those people are in every walk of life. The preamble which is read out at all Al-anon meetings says "take what you like and leave the rest.' It also says "the opinions expressed here were strictly of the person who gave them". It works for us and that is all I know.

I'm so not telling; yep, that's it.

They are not peer reviewed as far as I have been able to find and I invite everyone to peer review them Today. I have no idea why they are free because 2 of them are for sale.

There was an interesting article in the Indy on Sept 98 by Ursula Kenny if your interested.

I have issues with a lot of the 12-step movements - I think they do rely on bullying and superstition and they certainly don't work for everyone - and the US courst habit of forcing people to attend AA meetings I think is fairly unethical (for one thing there's no enforcement of standards or quality control or training for the 'leaders' so it's bound to have a good sprinkling of abusive nutjobs, like all the caring professions). However, I think the OP is coming across as a tinfoil-hatted loon.

Kirkers - you say " AA works for around 5% of people.". Do you know what % of alcoholics overall stop drinking before they die???? 5% seems like a good figure to me - its 5% more than nothing.

I am working myself into a fury about this.

That website looks almost identical to one I read where the woman believed that the government were putting poisons into her inhaler, and had infected her with mad cow disease at an airport. Poor woman was clearly having an horrific nervous breakdown. This kind of website is everywhere on the internet. I could set one up tomorrow saying that Mumsnet is a dangerous cult which promotes bumsex and exhorts money from members to be able to CONTACT ONE ANOTHER - oooh!

You are being GROSSLY unreasonable, and I ask you to look inside yourself and find out what exactly is motivating you to peddle such nonsense?

This is dangerous shit. If you manage to prevent ONE person (ONE vulnerable person who needs little reason to not seek help, such is alcoholism) from reaching out to AA for help because of this spurious crap, then you will have done someone a GREAT disservice.

Kirkers - just done a quick google (as you also did) and data that is fairly easy to find suggests that recovery rates overall are as low as 20%. Which suggests that AA accounts 1/4 of those who recover. I think that's pretty impressive, myself.

TheBoss; can you tell me where to find that, and thanks.

Actually, ignore that, its bad science on closer inspection!

Long-term recovery rates are about 40%. Of which, roughly 50% go for near abstinence, 50% for total abstinence. Can't find any reliable data that shows actual recovery rates for AA, or any other long-term peer support programmes, or in fact any recovery programmes at all, including self-support. Which isn't surprising when you consider the nature of the issue!

I wish my dad had stuck with AA before he drunk himself to death, alone in a bedsit.

alcoholism.about.com/od/homework/a/blniaaa050119.htm

Kirkers - do you understand what peer reviewing is??? I think not by your comments!

frazzled74. Hide thread.

Alcoholism has been prevalent in my family. I think my generation (now in our 40's/50's) is the first in which it appears not to have manifested.

My late mother was an alcoholic, and two of her sisters are recovering alcoholics. All three managed to stop drinking thanks to AA. The suggestion that AA is a cult is totally alien to everything I know about AA from my own/my family's experience. The idea that it is some sort of religious cult is even more bizarre.

One of my aunt's runs a Friday afternoon AA session for women only. I have been down to help her set up the room. The women who go find it a safe and supportive space. To have it suggested that my aunt is somehow leading a cult is a bloody insult quite honestly. All she and others like her want to do is help FFS.

I keep coming back to the thread because I'm SO concerned that someone might be put off seeking help for a fatal disease because they are worried about cults. Feel like screaming in frustration that anyone could post something like this....its not just unreasonable, its dangerous.

Well I got as far as the first line:

"The A.A. failure rate ranges from 95% to 100%. Sometimes, the A.A. success rate is actually less than zero, which means that A.A. indoctrination is positively harmful to people, and prevents recovery. "

This doesn't even make any sense.

The next claim that AA is worse than useless i assume means that everyone who has ever used it in the whole world has ended up in a worse state than when they went. Given that this directly contrdicts the first statement, that failure rate is between 95% and 100%, does not encourage me. Plus people on here have had success with AA ie it has worked for some people in the whole world.

The site is also riddled with italics and CAPITALS and bold when it makes its CLAIMS, also not something I find encouraging. It looks like it has been written by someone with an axe to grind.

I don't know much about AA, or cults, but what I do know with cults is that usually someone somewhere is benefitting hugely. Usually money or sex. AFAIK there is not a charismatic weirdy man at each AA meeting wangling his way into peoples pants. Also if people are giving an option £1 for coffee and buiscuits I can't see that is resulting in someone rolling around in a big pile of cash.

Just looked at the cult test thing on that orange papers site and it is just a big old random rant.

The other thing I know about AA is that llaguggub's DH goes there and gave up drinking. When I gave up drinking with the support of some wonderful MNers, llagreggub was an enormous source of strength and support (and her husband as well) and they did not bang on about AA except to say it had worked for her DH.

And re the evangelical thing - I gave up smoking with allen carr's book - I am evangelical about him - he was a genius, a wonderful man with a fabulous message, I would recommend that every smoker in the world reads his book, as he has the answer.

Is he a cult too?