I want to ask this somewhre where I might get a range of responses so not asking in SN, ismore a would you agree with this lady thing than a AIBU. Sn kids in mainstream education.

[Peachy]

Someone today whom I respect immensely and regard as kind, told me that in her opinion children with disabilities like dyslexia etc (so ampresuming the whole gamut of SEN - SN) shoudln't be in MS schools because of the effect on the other kids.

She is someone who though not employed by school has access to DS1 (ASD) and ds2 (SEN not sure what) during school time in a volunteer role. I pretty much trust her.

DS3 attends an SNU placement, but I do wonder how many people really share that attitude. My experience and belief tells me that different kids benefit from different settings so parents should have final say (it took me 2 years to get ds3 his place, and I face a battle now to get ds1 into SN Comp placement).

?

It should most definately be the parents choice as to which school is the most suitable to their child.

I've always felt the SN children in my DC's class have been a possitive presence, and added to the diversity of the characters in the class. But this has only worked when the SN children have 1:1 support.In DS2's class a child was near the end of reception before he was diagnosed, and provided with appropriate support. It was a difficult year for him, his parents, and at times the other children in his class.

I guess it all comes down to availble funding at the end of the day.

Thesecond, what if its the 'normal' kids pulling the hair, hitting etc the child with SN?

Should they be shipped out to a different school or should they be taught how to behave?

Having a SN doesnt mean you are incapable of learning, just that you learn in a different way.

Thesecond more than seeing it from the toehr side,I have NT (ish) children also.many of us do,in fact,sowe get toseeboth sides regulalry (although ds2 has challenges I don'tsee him as having SN as he has putely academic issues and does not reqwuire anything above what a lower eprforming NT child might get)

Sadly i think somepeopledoassume that the palcement and the amount of support given is our call, I imagine I thought that once upon a time. The actual battle that is the SN system is ahrd to see from the outside.

"People are scared to enter into a discussion on this kind of topic in case they use the wrong term and inadvertently offend anyone and that's a shame"

I do agree with that TSC.

All children should be taught in schools that suit them and their needs. I don't think it matters if that's a mainstream setting or a special one provided it meets that individual's needs.

As a teacher I often feel it would be better for everyone if it was easier to access specialist support for those children attending a MS on an ad-hoc basis rather than having to go through ridiculously long and arduous processes related more to funding than to needs. If I have a child in my class who is exhibiting ultra-challenging behaviour it would be fantastic if I could call on the team from the EBD school to come and advise me but it doesn't tend to work like that. If a child with ASD joins the class as a casual/in-year admission (perhaps very little notice) it would help smooth his/her arrival if I was aware of particular needs/routines/anxieties so I could make changes in class.

School is about so much more than academic learning and if children encounter differences at an early age and see them as exactly that, differences rather than obstacles or something to be afraid of then our children are in a position to challenge the prejudices of others, deny them that opportunity and we deny them access to so much more.

Schools should be inclusive but that's not the same as schools being given pupils without the funding/support/expertise/adaptations needed in order to make school a success for pupils with additional needs nor is it the same as denying parents and pupils the choice of a more specialist education if that's what they believe is the best for them.

I also agree with Orm. It is a shame. But equally as parents many of us feel a need to fight prejudice which can be diffiult.

And in many ways why I started this- Iamhoping that bieng in AIBU peoplecan feelfree to make mistakes if needed as nobody can presume any fore knowledge of terminology etc.

Far better to ehar the truth of peoples thought than to wonder and become defensiveIMO.

Spoiling for a fight, ridicule, blimey!

All im saying is that normal and sn children hit others for a reason. Normally out of frustration, the reason is the same for normal and SN kids.

SN children can be taught how to deal with that frustration, the same as normal children can.

I posted on the thread and i have NT children.

"As a teacher I often feel it would be better for everyone if it was easier to access specialist support for those children attending a MS on an ad-hoc basis rather than having to go through ridiculously long and arduous processes related more to funding than to needs. If I have a child in my class who is exhibiting ultra-challenging behaviour it would be fantastic if I could call on the team from the EBD school to come and advise me but it doesn't tend to work like that. If a child with ASD joins the class as a casual/in-year admission (perhaps very little notice) it would help smooth his/her arrival if I was aware of particular needs/routines/anxieties so I could make changes in class."

I totally agree with this SE13Mummy. As I said my DS1 has suspected Asperger's Syndrome, even though he isn't diagnosed he receives a great deal of support within school which I know he is incredibly lucky to get, I have been told this by class teachers and some of the people supporting him. It means that despite his lack of diagnosis he is already well supported and able to learn, but also that the diagnosis process is a lot less urgent, he sees the paed once a year, she is pretty sure he has AS but because she isn't 100% and he is well supported, the diagnosis can wait until she is sure. I wish it were possible to treat more children individually who need it, I think it would head off a lot of problems that appear later on.

Thesecond 'shoving all not normal children into some ghetto' is not what i said at all.

I replied in tune with the thread putting the shoe on the other foot so to speak.

Anyhow enough of he said, she said. A discussion on peoples views is a good thing on that we can agree.

MillyR, its fairly obvious that you no experience in this area. EBD schools still do exist, both day and boarding. Infact they even take the odd child out of county from areas with no special schools.

The problem is labelling. If you tell a child that they are bad then will be bad. In many ways send a child to a school for bad children is the ultimate in labelling. Its why it is not done likely. Even so the emphasis is preparing the children for life not for an instituionalised life in prison.

In the same way sending a child to a school for children with learning difficulties can limit their opportunties and believe that they have less ablity than they really have.

Toughasoldboots - yes, thank you, DD1 will go to the nearest SN school, which deals with a range of SN from moderate learning difficulties, complex learning difficulties, ASD and PMLD.

I can see where people are coming from. No-one wants to have difficulties for their children. And until you are in the SN world, you can't fully appreciate the complexity of it.

From the outside, dd looks like a spoiled brat. I know it and it pains me. I have an OT report which shows that DD sees and hears and feels the world differently from other children. But when she screams, it is a scream you will hear. You won't hear "I really can't make sense of what I am hearing"

DD will go to the SN school, and my hope is that she will thrive. But had I sent my DD to mainstream, I hope that at least someone would have been pleased she was there each day.

Thesecond, to me it looked like you were saying that SN children who hit other children or are aggressive to other children should not attend ms school.

If i got that wrong then i apologise.

what an awful thing to say.

i went to scool with several dyslexic kids. my best friend was severly dyslexic and i never even noticed til quite late in primary school which goes to show how little it disrupted the rest of us. and i was in a class of 32 with only one teacher, no TA's.

Avrilmore than just expressing anopinion,itmay even be the case she was trying totupmeoffthat I need tore-evaluate ds1'spalcement.Without naimg the aldy I amgoing to ask the SENCO that outright. She may well have done me afavour.

But whilst peoplecanthink what they wish, when you know that someone has two children with SN in tthe school, ifit is just a non-pc opinion it probably is sensible tokeep that foranother time I would say.

Again she may have been genuinely seeking my thoughts as someone withe xperience as part of forming an informed opinion of her own, I appreciate that and applaud it and for that reason will not decry her comment or judge her on it.

Can I add a point. I really hate it when I hear people claim: "it's so good for the other children to have a disabled kid in the class." It turns the child into some kind of a prop for all the NT children. They should be in the class because it is right for THEM, not for the other children.

As a mother of NT children I do believe in inclusion - as long as parents have the option of special schools for their children when they believe it to be appropriate. And from what I've read on this and the other thread that is often not the case.

jeee - do you hate it as much as people saying they wished the child with AS was educated elsewhere becuase he had a meltdown which disrupted the entire class?

I can understand jeeee'spoint though:whilst it is a happy side benefit it shouldn't be a priority for the aprents and the childs realneeds should be addresed regardlessof whetehr other children will benefit from their inclusion. I ahve no doubt DS3'sclass benefitted fromhis inclusion if only todemnstrate the difference between him and the ADHD child who was disrupting things; it didn't helphim though,espeically when his TA was given to the ADHD child whenever there was a shortage and he was left uanble to talk or help himself.

Absolutely, Peachy...it can be a happy side benefit.

LynetteScavo, I do actually get annoyed at people campaigning to have kids removed from my children's classes because they have some difficulties - I always feel like I'm back in the school playground myself with everyone ganging up on the odd child.

I think the occasional melt-down from another child is highly unlikely to lead to my child failing their GCSEs, and in my experience if it's more often than occasionally the school has systems in place to deal with it.

yy peachy. I was wary of mentioning side-benefits for exactly the reasons mentioned. Obv only of minor significance, but still of relevance when people are discussing the negatives of a mixed environment.

It is true that it is terribly hard for parents of NT children to commnet, even in a positive way, because of our massively limited knowledge (I don't even know what NT stands for, though I know what it means), and because of the huge emotional intensity of some of the issues. I don't think that difficulty is really removable, it just needs continuing caution.