I want to ask this somewhre where I might get a range of responses so not asking in SN, ismore a would you agree with this lady thing than a AIBU. Sn kids in mainstream education.

[Peachy]

Someone today whom I respect immensely and regard as kind, told me that in her opinion children with disabilities like dyslexia etc (so ampresuming the whole gamut of SEN - SN) shoudln't be in MS schools because of the effect on the other kids.

She is someone who though not employed by school has access to DS1 (ASD) and ds2 (SEN not sure what) during school time in a volunteer role. I pretty much trust her.

DS3 attends an SNU placement, but I do wonder how many people really share that attitude. My experience and belief tells me that different kids benefit from different settings so parents should have final say (it took me 2 years to get ds3 his place, and I face a battle now to get ds1 into SN Comp placement).

?

my son has challenging behaviour, he is in a special school. He has not once deliberately hurt another child ( 6 years ago he trapped a boys hand in a play house because he wanted to shut the door and didn't spot the hand and about 4 years ago he ran into another child I can't remember him ever hurting another child).

He often has the noises he makes copied and laughed at by nt kids though.

There are of course some children with SN in mainstream whose behaviour might affect the other children. But parents are usually very aware of this and will use it to try and get a specialist placement. From years of reading and attending support groups I have to include that it is more common for the child with SN to have their education disrupted by untrained and often uninterested staff and for them to be bullied.

We chose our NT sons' school because it is inclusive and provides good support to children with disabilities. As they have a disabled brother we didn't want them to see disabled children being treated badly in school.

Bloody iPod typing-conclude not include. Just trying to clear up the misunderstandings that kids in special schools are beating each other up and every child with challenging behaviours (or even sn) are just waiting to lash out at their classmates.

There are many reasons for a child to attend a special school other than behaviour. My son's special school teachers have high expectations for independence for him - he is given jobs for example and expected to do them. He is in an environment where properly trained experienced staff support his communication needs, an environment where his sensory needs are understood and accomodated. And because he's happy he learns.

Some of the ideas on this thread - of special schools being some sort of dumping ground for those too feral to attend mainstream with proper children are very far off the mark and do such schools a great disservice. DS1's SLD school is the happiest place I know. You can't go in there and not come out smiling. And it has challenging behaviours as a specialism. So it's not just taking east cases.

Only read the OP and first few replies
not something i've given a lot of thought to
think it would vary in each situation
so SIBU making sweeping statements

amongst my children i have a straight 50-50 split with those of my chilren needing sn support and those who dont have sn,and in my own experience i have found its the parents that dont cope with the situations they are in,be it the parents of able children coping with the sn child or the parents of a sn child having to cope with the able children and so on,it is awareness and tolerance we all have to learn,i myself have a barrier up with one parent of a child with cerebalpalsy who has had an incident with my child who has behavioral difficulties,i think the cp parent can physically see her daughters probs but doesnt accept my daughters probs,so needless to say theres a chill in the air! and shockingly after all our previous battles my husband said " a fragile child with cp shouldnt be in mainstream ,if the parents are so worried" WHAT!! there are atleast 2 other children who have cp and they cope fine in ms. i think the answer is case by case but as i have read the other posts it is tolerance and understanding we all need a bit more of

saintlydame is sounds as if he is doing really well

DS3's main hurdle is his absences:he may bemoderate but if you spenda significant portion ofeach day in another world where nobody can reach you then your prospects will be lowered. We are always hopeful that these willpass, but as they are increasing find it most helpful to assume not and be ever hopeful of a nice surprise. If that makes sense?

RE:specialist dyslexic schools,there are afewbut feepaying IIRC> If ds2'sSEn wereour biggest hurdlewewould considermoving home as Edington School there has a great rep and although fee paying is far cheaper than most private schools. I, ofcourse,would be able to work. However,with the otehrs needs that is not an option for us.
But we are rare as a family, it is available for some.

I think it depends on the extent of the special needs.
Most kids with special needs can be easily incorporated into the existing sytem, especially dyslexics who often improve rapidly with specialised help.
On the other hand I think children with a degree of mental handicap who aren't capable of understanding main stream lessons and need 1 to 1 attention all the time may be better served by being at a special school with more funding, more appropriate facilities and whwere they are less likely to be bullied. It can also be distracting to the rest of the class if there is someone in the class who is always disruptive (thinking more bad ADHD here rather than mental handicap) and stops the rest of the class getting on.
I think you have to look at what's best for the child concerned and all the other pupils at the school rather than use broad ideologies.

thesecondcoming

You might want to pop back and read the 'don't say no' bit as I genuinely think you have misunderstood.

It does not mean that the child is not stopped from doing a dangerous activity. It means that using the word no - for lots of children with ASD simply does not work.

My DS has ASD and I can't say the word 'no' to him or he will become very distressed and bite himself.
That does not mean he is not reproached or dealt with when he does something wrong.
I say "pagboy. xxx is dangerous. if yo do xxx then you must go to your room" At school they have another sanction which is similar

Ypou have misunderstood and think parents of SN children are sayingthat they can do what they want.

They are not saying that. They are saying that children with ASD may need a different strategy.

FWIW. My son has not hurt anyone since he used to head butt me when he was about 3. He doesn't much liked to be touched and only likes touching other people by hugging his family and close friends. He has no dangerous activities - except that I have to watch he does not run in the road.
He is (thankfully having read MN recently) in an SN school

TSC the thing with ASD is that there are differences in communication, so for some children with ASD "no" doesn't work, or can inflame the situation even more, as a poster on the other thread said her son with ASD likes the word "no", so if you say "no" to him then it makes him repeat the action rather than stop. A child with ASD should have a more individualised approach so that they are able to learn. My son has (suspected) Asperger's Syndrome, he has resources in the classroom that the other children don't need, to help him along through the day. His teacher also helps him with socialisation by encouraging friendships where she sees him becoming friendly with specific children. Unfortunately the parents of these children aren't always as helpful.

In response to the OP, I think SIBU to make such a sweeping generalisation. I think (in an ideal world obviously) the choice should be down to the parent unless the SEN cause such a dispruption that the other children are affected, which I suspect is the minority of cases. I don't think you can decide that all children with x or y condition should go to MS/SN education, it should be on a case by case basis decided by the parents after being advised from the specialists dealing with their chid.

And FWIW I think of myself as astonishingly fortunate to have my son who is gorgeous, sweet and totally gentle and lovely.

Where I am unfortunate is where I have to be in a world where people shout abuse at him and think that he, and his peers, should be shoved off into some corner away from 'normal' people. As evidenced on several threads recently
That's the unfortunate bit

Hi Peachy, I would disagree with your friend, as someone else has already said its usually the other way round, NT children who have the greater effect on children with SN.

Should NT children and SN children who can be taught in MS be segregated, a big NO from me. Society should be more tolerate of 'differences' and this should start to be taught at a young age.

We should all accept and love each other. Throws love about widely.

Hi Peachy. You'll know I'm not on the SN boards. I have two NT DSs. I think that the drive towards inclusion in recent years has been driven by funding pressures and not by what is best for children, be they SN or NT.

I think that some SN children can have their needs met by MS schooling, without that being to the detriment of the children's education. I think that some SN children are a positive asset to a MS school and teach the children tolerance and respect for difference. I think that some SN children simply cannot fit into a state class of 30-35 (IME) without disrupting the education of all the children, probably including themselves since if they are being disruptive they are probably not having their own needs met. I think these children should not be in MS.

Thesecond- firstly TDWPisn;'t here,secondly maybe re-read that thead?Penbty of suggestions to disicpline/ working with the child were amde (some by me) and many of us just said shouting at a child with ASD is no good. That doesn'tmean we wish our children to go untaught as to rules and safety.

Also I ahev acknowledged a few times that ds1scares other shildren in my postings. Perhaps you missed that?COuld be so,thread is fast moving.

Glad you agree passes Hully a spliff and a spare tree to hug

I do mean it though. I think we should make space for all, join up, hold hands and love each other.

Just responding to the OP: Would certainly disagree with that woman's views.

Largely bcs the main obligation is to place a child with SN in the school environment that is best for her (and with the support that makes it work -- if the child's SN is contributing to a difficult environment for other pupils then I would guess it isn't being managed particularly well for the child herself?)

But also bcs (an of course this is secondary to the intersts of the SN child) in many (most?) cases there is not harm but bebefit to other children? My son had awful problems learning to write, and was allowed to join in with a special small group of people with similar difficulties, which was only able to exist bcs a classmate had cerebral palsy and qualified for a specialist support teacher to come in for extra lessons. And my younger son often mentions the (minor) issues that come up with a child at his school who has autistic-like difficulties. If the child wasn't there, that's a whole chunk of world that my son wouldn't be learning about.

Haven't read whole thread, but surely the point is that SN kids in mainstream schools need proper support, which in many cases they are not getting? I think there's also an important role for SN schools and many are doing a fabulous job.

Wereworm valid point: Ds1's sattement (I would prefer not but tehre you go) funds forhis TA to teach him in a small group environment 10 hours a week.

That means several other borderline children are getting funded support with him.

I am not convinced either way where he should be TBH, but that has to be a plus for the NT kids?

What made me think i didnt. Id like teach the world to sing too Hully, you hum it and i'l get my tambourine.

"What made me think I didnt."

Only me can answer that, Claw.

TheSecond- not offended.

I am aware ds1 scares people soetimes,I now he is a risk at times, I acknowledge that and trry to work with that and the school.
I wish he had 1-1 so it could be stopped becuase that would work, we are not allowed it. I feel upset when people blame ds1 and myself, when actually it is the school and the LEA that is at fault.

Does that clarify it a bit?

I am trying not to engage and be argumentative BTW- hope my trying to explain is not seen as that.

Doh! me spliff is working.