I want to ask this somewhre where I might get a range of responses so not asking in SN, ismore a would you agree with this lady thing than a AIBU. Sn kids in mainstream education.

[Peachy]

Someone today whom I respect immensely and regard as kind, told me that in her opinion children with disabilities like dyslexia etc (so ampresuming the whole gamut of SEN - SN) shoudln't be in MS schools because of the effect on the other kids.

She is someone who though not employed by school has access to DS1 (ASD) and ds2 (SEN not sure what) during school time in a volunteer role. I pretty much trust her.

DS3 attends an SNU placement, but I do wonder how many people really share that attitude. My experience and belief tells me that different kids benefit from different settings so parents should have final say (it took me 2 years to get ds3 his place, and I face a battle now to get ds1 into SN Comp placement).

?

Hmm no one that he was 'equal' to isn't quite right. No- one that he was like or could recognize was like him or identify with I guess.

My son is severely autistic. He is aware that he is severely autistic (prob wasn't when he was in mainstream). He hates not being able to talk. To be around walky talkies all day would be devastating and depressing for him I think if that's all be ever saw ( I find rooms full of NT kids enough after a while) even if he couldn't express it. He's far happier and at ease with other learning disabled kids. Yes he now has some familiar NT kids he likes, but a room of 30 of them would be overpowering. Also his mainstream school was far noisier than his SLD school which was problematic at the time.

kerry - legally if parents want their child to go to mainstream the school/lea has to show why they can't. They can only refuse on the grounds that the child being there would affect other children. Unfortunately (for many families) you can't demand a specialist school in the same way.

Glad your nephew is doing well now.

Have only read Op.

I agree that each case should be considered individually.
I think that the issue is often about the degree of support that a child with SEN may require and also how to manage that support so that there is no detriment to the other children, including those with SEN who may have very different needs, and inclusion is real. I dislike what can seem like very token inclusion, where a child has very high level SEneeds and gets so much support that they are effectively isolated from the children without SEN and are unable to form real social relationships. Alternatively mainstream without support could lead to bullying and isolation.
I also feel that it is wrong if a child is placed in a school that offers support for SEN issues such as ADHD/ASD but does not help those children achieve their academic potential.
I agree that inclusion offers a benefit to non-SEN children, understanding of the world beyond them, the experiences of others, how challenges can be met etc = education, surely?

DS2 (autism and dyspraxia) goes to MS school and has full 1:1. He went to a SN nursery for a year and it was decided by the people involved with him during that time that for his own social skills h would be better off in MS. I wanted him to either stay in SN or do half and half. Because he has the ability to learn, the professionals decided this was the way to go.

He copes very well when he was his 1:1 there, but when she is on her dinner or off sick the school do not cover her place and he is very hard to handle, takes up the teachers time and is generally a pain in the bum. He even escaped out of school once, luckily I was waiting in the yard as it was near home time. I do feel for the other children when it coems to this and have had several words with the school about it. And yes I do feel that sometimes I just want to take him out of MS and put him back where I know he is safe.

He isn't learning half as much as the other children in his class, and he will probably be back in SN school by the time he is in Y2, as I've been told by his teacher and SENCO, unless I allow him to be segregated from the class, which is against one of the reasons he is in MS school.

The point I'm (trying) to make is that sometimes the parents go with what the "professionals" say, even if it is against their better judgement

Merle,
I presume with your sweeping statement, that you have in-depth knowledge of ADHD? You live it every day, go to conferences, understand the medication etc?
As a parent of a ds with severe ADHD, and who helps run a support grp, I can assure you that ADHD and bad behaviour are NOT the same AT ALL.
What about ASDisorders? DC with these conditions present very differently and sometimes their behaviour is very challenging-BUT,this behaviour comes from a very different place to simple"bad behaviour"-if there is such a thing.
With your beliefs, you are sounding as narrow-minded as the OPs friend!
I agree that different dc thrive in different settings and should have the opportunity to do so.
Sorry for hi-jack of thread, OP.

5 - sounds a bit similar to us. We were told that ds1 had to go to mainstream as be had 'coped' with a mainstream nursery (with a specialist interest in asd btw and an owner who paid to get herself pecs trained). Anyway once we hit year 1 and it was obvious the scho didn't have the faintest idea what they were doing I rang the pros individually and asked them to answer one question ' do you think the school are coping with his needs?' they all said no!!!!! So we got an SLD school. Unfortunately I had to ask the question - the info was not volunteered!!!

in answer to the op
I am anti inclusion as imo is uses the child as a learning tool for other children, where as I just want my dd to have friends and a normal life, so an sn school is best for her imo.
but other than that i feel it should be down to parental choice,.

So where exactly would my DS go then?

He does not fit the criteria for specialist schools in this area. We have a lot and they are very good but they are not appropriate for him.

Academically he fits, socially and developmentally he doesnt. The specialist schools I am aware of have moved on to cater for children with PMLD, SLD, ASD combined with medical and physical disabilities.

Children with LD (including Down Syndrome) are pretty much all MS unless they have complex needs.

I like the idea of DS being in a school with 10 in a class, 1:1 supoort and a focus on life and social skills. That option is not open to him or the other children like him.

princessparty love the way you choose who can an can't be in ms........

You know,the child that I movedout os MS wasn't challenging, he'd sit,sometimes sobbing, quietly in a corner and be ignored. Ms certainly is not forall children,and I think a great many (certainly not all) ASD children do benefit fromsmallerclasses, prevention of sensory overload etc. Behaviour isn't the be alland end all qualifier.

But of course H&S is a massive consideration.For both, as we relaised when ds1 had shoe shaped bruises after being atatcked by 12 children.

Well obviously i don't get to choose do I because otherwise those 2 younger boys wouldn't be there !
I think not being detrimental to other children's well being or education is a pretty good criterian.... and so does the law !!

I am now wondering if she asked me as a hint tbh- goodness knows about which one LOL, ASDds1 or oprobably- ADD-or-dyspraxic ds2?

DS2 is staying put, it works for him. DS1?Ah ha ha ha as if I haven;t tried everything to get more help.

But shemight also have asked becuase she knows what I am studying and wanted to get more info. That would be a nice thing surelY/

My DS 14 has been on SEN register on and off since he started school for dyslexia/SLD. He has had some one to one work in primary but he is seen as one of the high fliers in his secondary school , is never disruptive and from what I can gather contributes a lot to class and school.

trouble is a lot of the children(thinking back to when ds now 17 was in priamry) who obviously had some kind of sn, never had it picked up on, so they just spent all day sitting out side the heads room and bulling the other kids,

by the way thread interest me as I am going to be fighting a different battle soon as they want to move dd when she is 16 to a "mixed sn college" and I am going to have to battle to keep her in the sn school she is in. so parental choice really means crap........it all comes down to money

well from my point of view of a mum with a daughter with asd, i feel she shouldnt be in mainstream as she deserves better care and attention.

however i know children with asd who cope well in a mainstream

mind u just b4 i got my daughters diagnosis she was enrolled in a mainstream she went for the open day and after this snooty stuck up teacher goes we wouldnt have the facility for your daughter ?

the school was known to be very academic so i guess my little princess would not have fitted into her perfect class.

so over my dead body would she go into a mainstream school unless i knew she could cope and would not be seen as a inconveinance.

i am sure there are great mainstreams out there with fantastic teachers but i have a bad experience and it will stick in mind for a very long time.

Reading the experiences of those who battle to get the best for their children who have sn, I have to say it all sounds like shit.

That isn't helpful is it?

But it does. Such crappy hard work. Why must it be so?
I completely see that sn children cannot be used as a learning tool at their own expense. Yet I feel that it is so healthy for the whole community to see who and what makes up a community. I think in primary as I have a primary aged kid.

In my world of fluffy bunnies and gentle summer breezes, the parents have chosen the school that is best for their child. Using the input if whatever health type person who seemed sensible.
What is best for their child will usually prove best for the larger community too, by default.

But as always, it comes down to the money. Arse.

And perhaps the parent muttering about the impact of a child with sn on their child, is as much at the mercy of that as anyone. They are sadly directing the muttering at the wrong person. They would do better to plauge the LEA's to ensure adequate and individualised teaching provision for all children.
This is me in a rare mood, I am generally pretty towards that muttering parent.

When aprents ahve had a go,I ahve waited until the next day, explained and asked them (via letter) to talk to the school so that they can be persuaded to back ourrequest for lunchtime (ot isalways lunchtime) support

To date nobody has bothered

It is I suppose easier th scream and scare a parent than actually do something.

I just can't imagine it. It makes me got hot.

How dare they?

My wish for 2010 is that people will understand that children with disabilities do not have a disease; children with disabilities are not looking for a cure but ACCEPTANCE

yeah i've had this bullshit too. my son is on the spectrum, very mildly though. and other parents with their f*cking perfect children wonder how my boy with all the challenges he's going to face will affect their precious little darling. who will probably get 7 As anyway. Makes me see red.

the education board tried to force me to try my daughter in sn school b4 she got her diagnosis.

this was a little girl that cried and kicked and held her hands over her ears and would not play with another child.

well my words to the ed board were i know my daughter and i will keep her home before i put her into mainstream.

and guess what she is doing so well now in sn and they agree she would not have coped in mainstream.

each child is different and providing the parents are happy then its their choice.

One thing which seems to be coming up again and again
Parents of children with behavioural issues just WILL NOT accept the idea that their DC can hurt frighten or disrupt the education of other children.

This is a genuine question.

nt children bully other children. Aggression doesn't go hand in hand with sn you know. You seem to think so though princess party.

And I read your earlier post and thought, wow, somebody touched your child's pencil case/pony tail. Good lord, how distressing. I think you need to realise that nt children are very tactile and horseplay.

You need to rein in your prejudices.

And this is a genuine question, why is a child with some sn less entitled to be at school than your child who can't cope with somebody touching her pencil case hmmm?

Would you have kicked einstein out of school for touching somebody else's pencil case?

Maggie if you had bothered to read my post I said 'pulling hair' pulling loose hair not touching a ponytail.
Stealing her backpack given to her by GPs and wiping his snotty not giving it back >my poor DD crying trying to pull it out of his arms .
Kicking destroying work and the continual disruption.
NT kids may be tactile, naughty even but they understand NO they can be effectively disciplined

The 18 other kids in the class are more entitled to be a MS school because they are not stopping anyone else from learning !!