To expect DD to go to university?

[WashwithCare]

Chatting away on an unrelated issue, I uttered the immortal words "when DD goes to universtiy"... another mother immediately jumped in. She chided that I couldn't just "assume" DD would either want or be able to go to university..

DD is 3 and has just started pre-school. However, I definitely do ASSUME she will go to University, and not just any University, but a "good" one to boot. Preferably to do a 'proper' subject.

AIBU?

Litchick It's the difference between "I would like" and "You must". Most people want to help their child succeed, it's when you completely ignore what your child wants that problems arise.

Oh, and I get the feeling your Mum wouldn't have been devastated if you didn't go to a Russell Group uni.

SO WWC and Litchick, what would you do in a case similar to that of my parent: where half of your brood did what you expected of them and the other half flatly refused but built successful and happy lives for themselves in an area that was completely different from any expectations you had had for them? Would you try to make them change their minds? Didn't work for my parents. Would you carry on insisting that they had gone wrong though they were manifestly doing good work and leading happy lives? At what stage do you let go and accept that maybe they saw something you didn't.

What some of us are trying to say is, there is some kind of space between living in a yurt and attending a RG university. Most of my friends do not have degrees. None of them live on sink estates. They all work. Most of them have very fulfilling lives and fill a useful function in society.

I don't have "no expectations at all" for my dd. I expect that she will give serious consideration to her choice of career, I expect that she will do her homework to find out the best way to achieve her goals, I expect that she will work hard and give her best to her chosen work. But whether that work involves going to a certain type of university, going to university at all, starting up a business, doing a vocational course, or even scrambling for one of the few apprenticeships still going- well, that's for her to work out. I will help as much as I can. But she decides. I decided my path in life, and I don't think I made too bad a mess of it.

My FIL was devastated when his son decided to be an archaeologist as this was not his idea of a proper job; he even tried to get him to join the army as a last desperate measure (dh totally unsuited for this). He even apologised to my mother at our engagement with the implication that his feckless son was clearly never going to be in a position to support a family. His only consolation was that his eldest son had a Real Job, that he could understand. Twenty-five years later, his eldest son has lost jobs countless times and had to start again in different fields; dh is still with the same firm and still feels he made the right choice. He would probably have lasted 5 minutes in the army: I imagine it might well have ended in suicide. But my FIL was convinced that he had his best interests at heart. We do not always know our children as well as we think we do.

I have the highest aspirations for my dcs, who don't have any kind of sn so far as I know at the moment. I also assume that they will go to university, and am planning financially for that as assume it will only get more expensive. Everyone in my and dh's family has been to university, and it's hardly unusual. It's a bit different from saying that I plan for them to be pro-golfers - that would be much more 'special'. Saying that you assume your children will go to good universities is very different from saying that you will resent them if they don't. Especially if you're talking about something that's going to happen in around 2025.

I do agree with WWC in that we all, to some degree, project our expectations onto our offspring, and that includes people with very low expectations and feelings of inverted snobbery about education, as well as well as middle-class professionals. I think the danger though, is in assuming, rather than encouraging. It puts unnecessary pressure on a child to conform to your ideals, and will instill feelings of failure and hopelessness in her, and feelings of disappointment and resentment in you, if she turns out to be academically below average, or clever, but with a burning ambition to be a hairdresser! I would dearly love all three of mine to go to uni, and I will help and encourage them as much as I can, but ultimately it needs to be their choice, and the right thing for them. It's a bit like assuming that your child will be straight, and refusing to acknowledge the possibility that they may turn out to be gay.

It may not be that special Romanarama, it wasn't to my family: didn't stop my brothers or my nephew from making their own very definite plans that did not involve university. Should they have given up on those plans (all of which have proved highly successful from their pov) just because going to university was nothing special and everybody else was going? My nephew didn't want to lead everybody else's life: he wanted to lead his own. I hope my children will be as focused and together when their time comes.

slightly in awe of a 19yo who can formulate his own business plan, get it up and running and make a go of it- but the point is, he was able, so should he have been dissuaded?.

WashwithCare your post reminds me of my parents. Without a doubt they had my best interests at heart but one of my very earliest memories (aged 2? maybe) was my mum saying similar things to me - when you are at university, yes you can be a ballerina / hairdresser / circus trainer (or whatever I had set my heart on as a child at that moment) after you have been to university.
Now I am grown and have children of my own I did of course go to university but my recollection is not how my parents helped me but how little they helped me in practical ways. The message is this, think carefully if you think it is your only and sole job to make your expectations of your children clear without also asking in what practical ways am I helping my children do this and is it realistic and fair to put such expectations on them? I have nothing against positive thinking, believing you can achieve things but just a warning, you may end up with a very high achieving daughter who goes to university and gets post graduate qualifications etc but wants to disown you because of the pushy and unsupportive way you went about it

LOL Riven, nor me!!!!

Actually my Mum did want me to go to Oxford, but that was because she'd read it was 'the best' and that's what she wanted for me.
I'm sure if I'd have ended up incapable of that she wouldn't have been devestated but then again...you see, she saw it as the best way to escape a very difficult world. And to be fair, I think a good education is still the best way to get out of poverty.

As for me, well I suppose I only see going to Uni in a positive light.
My children need not escpae poverty, but I'd still love them to go.
It's fun, you meet lots of great people, w3hat's not to like? Notice I didn't mention the sex and drinking...
I see it as a rite of passage and a fabulous thing to do before deciding what you want to do with your life.

What would I do if my children didn't want to go?
That would depend entirely on what they wanted to do instead.

As for happiness...well of course I want my children to be happy. But I guess that means many different things to many different people.

It's fun and I loved it. But my brother equally loved his time at sea- still does-, my nephew loves going into people's houses to lay their floors. My younger brother left uni because he realised he would be happier in a different environment.

It's fun but it's not the only way of having fun.

And to be frank, since I started tutoring, I have seen too many students for whom it is no fun at all. The counselling service and pastoral support service at my university are kept very busy.

That's sad, Cory, what are they so unhappy about?
Is the work? Financialpressure? Are they not suffiectly prepared to leave home?

YABU to assume she'll want to go to uni.
I went to a good uni, and I absolutely loved it. DH didn't go to uni and never wanted to but he's in a good job, earning enough for us and he pays the bills while I'm a SAHM. While I lean towards uni as being the logical step, DH is all for our children making their own choices and us guiding them as much as we can. But I'm jumping the gun by several years so we'll see what actually happens when our LOs get older

you may end up with a very high achieving daughter who goes to university and gets post graduate qualifications etc but wants to disown you because of the pushy and unsupportive way you went about it

Thanks RaspberryCheesecake. Just a stab in the dark here, but do you think you might just be projecting your unresolved issues with your parents onto my relationship with my daughter?

As for me, well I suppose I only see going to Uni in a positive light.
My children need not escpae poverty, but I'd still love them to go.
It's fun, you meet lots of great people, w3hat's not to like? Notice I didn't mention the sex and drinking...
I see it as a rite of passage and a fabulous thing to do before deciding what you want to do with your life.

And if you go to Oxford, you also get to punt down the river and eat swan....

Litchick - agree with everything you say.

Litchick Thu 21-Jan-10 12:49:51
"That's sad, Cory, what are they so unhappy about?
Is the work? Financialpressure? Are they not suffiectly prepared to leave home?"

Well, I'm not in counselling, so I can't tell what problems the students have who go there. I imagine some have the kind of problems they would have anywhere (mental health, illness, boyfriends).

But most who come to me - as a tutor- are unhappy either because the work is too difficult for them or because they really do not find the environment or type of work congenial and they feel guilty about it (because we all know you should be having a whale of a time at university- so you feel a failure if you simply don't like it much).

We have excellent support for all kinds of medical conditions, disability, financial problems, very good reputation for pastoral all round. But it's harder when you secretly agree with somebody that 'yes, you are not actually suited to this work, I can see you're not enjoying it and that it is too hard for you'. I can't make somebody enjoy doing something that they weren't cut out to do- any more than I could make myself enjoy ballet dancing if that had been the natural path for my family: I still have little talent and no interest.

Of course, the majority of students are fine, learn to enjoy it, get through the difficult patches, have great social life. But it's hard for the ones that are not fine.

20% of the Scottish population is functionally illiterate.

Lots of these people are happy. Lots of them have jobs. Some of them make lots of money. Some of these people found learning to read and write very stressful.

I'd still rather DD could read and write. What a pushy mom I am!

I hope both my dc reach there own full potiental for their own satisfaction - how ever that may be

I doubt either will continue in formal education

Again, you speak as if there was nothing between attending a RG university and being illiterate. I can assure you that the relatives I listed in my earlier posts are not illiterate. You can't run an international business being illiterate. You can't even navigate a big ship being illiterate. It is not the case that going to an RG university is the only thing that stands between your dd and illiteracy. We may have lowered standards, but we haven't actually got to the point where we are teaching them to read, you know.

The point about being a pushy mum is that you need to recognise that your dd will be an adult one day. It is fine to you to make decisions and push her to adapt to your life now; that's what parents do. But would you really be prepared for your own parents to have that level of control over you now when you are adult? You really seem to struggle to recognise that the day will come when your dd will be an adult like you are an adult. Perhaps it is because your dd is very young. Mine is quite a bit older- and I can see it coming. She is already forming her own interests and her own opinions, she will not lead my life.

Well Cory - it's reassuring to find you have surrended the principle of having expectations for your children, and now we are only arguing about where do hold the bar.

Well Cory - it's reassuring to find you have surrended the principle of having expectations for your children, and now we are only arguing about where to hold the bar.

Oophs - I know it was a good point, but I didn't mean to make it twice!

My Mum expected me to be a beautiful seamstress and very adept at creating a beautiful home (on top of my academic achievements, which she also encouraged), as this was something that the women of her family had always done, it was nothing special, just the natural thing to do. From that point of view it was certainly a privileged upbringing. I am clumsy to the point of dyspraxia. Her expectations didn't make any difference to that; all they did was make me feel a failure.

The fact that we grew up in an extremely musical home, with every chance to learn new instruments and be exposed to good music, didn't actually make my brother musical either. Again, all the privileges at hand- but not the natural ability. He was better off cutting his losses and concentrating on what he really could do well. He is very good at navigating big ships through small harbours: I have stood on the bridge many times and watched him do it and it is seriously impressive. There was nothing to feel a failure about.

WWC I am perfectly consistent: I have always maintained that I have a right to have expectations on my child while she is a child (i.e. that she should do her teeth, do her homework, try her best at school) as long as those expectations are reasonable given natural ability (i.e. I do not have the right to expect a child of low intelligence to come top of the class, or a tonedeaf child to get a chorister's place).

But I also maintain (consistently) that I do not have the right to impose my expectations on her adult choices.

YANBU to want your DD to go to university ,but YABU to expect her to. When she is old enough to choose you have to let her choose what she wants to do and not what you think she should do. Not all young people are cut out for university.