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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To expect DD to go to university?

256 replies

WashwithCare · 19/01/2010 20:50

Chatting away on an unrelated issue, I uttered the immortal words "when DD goes to universtiy"... another mother immediately jumped in. She chided that I couldn't just "assume" DD would either want or be able to go to university..

DD is 3 and has just started pre-school. However, I definitely do ASSUME she will go to University, and not just any University, but a "good" one to boot. Preferably to do a 'proper' subject.

AIBU?

OP posts:
BritFish · 19/01/2010 23:34

i dont know if this has already been asked, because i can't be bothered to go through people saying YANBU!
its nice to 'hope' that your child goes to university but to EXPECT?
and what in your mind constitutes a proper subject anyway hmm?
differentiating between subjects is like that of between jobs....so being a SAHM is less important than being a lawyer, you could say... [if you were a crazy person]

megapixels · 19/01/2010 23:38

YANBU. I suppose if it's normal for everyone in your family to go to university you wouldn't think of it as something out of the ordinary. It's quite different from forcing a child who doesn't want to go. I do expect my children would go to university, it is as standard as proceeding from Year 6 to Year 7 in my family. I understand that it may not happen.

It's just like saying something like "When you are a mother you will understand" to your children. That's not offensive is it?

madwomanintheattic · 19/01/2010 23:39

i went to the university of warwick.

i dropped out after two terms.

my father insisted that i go to the doctor to see if i was mental. (his words, not mine, in a carey-sort of voice.)

these days of course i'm writing my phd proposal, but i made 'em wait until my mid twenties before i bothered to go back and get a degree.

why i bothered posting on a wwc thread i have no idea. i love the patronising links too. v funny. (here we are children, this is what i mean by russell group)

are you a man, or a particularly officious kindergarten teacher, wwc?

cory · 19/01/2010 23:43

No megapixels, not offensive at all, as long as you are willing to accept that when she is a mother, she will not necessarily understand the same things as you. At least that is what I have found with my mother. The more I experience of life at the stages where I remember my own (very lovely and competent) mother, the more I realise that we really do have a totally different take on life.

So I have to accept that this may well be the way with my own dd. And tbh we are not particularly alike.

megapixels · 19/01/2010 23:48

But that's not what I mean Cory. What I mean is how sure can you be that your child would want to be a mother/father? It shouldn't be an automatic assumption, but it is one that people make. There's nothing bad about it, it's only bad if you then force them to conform to your ideal. Nothing wrong with just automatically expecting it until you hear from them otherwise.

sayithowitis · 19/01/2010 23:49

Thing is though, you won't be able to assume that a degree will automatically guarantee higher income in the future. As more and more school leavers are shunted off to university in order to meet the target of 50% or whatever it is, they will end up saturating the market with degrees and therefore the value of a degree will go down. It is already the case that the earnings differential between graduates and non graduates has reduced since 1997 and this is bound to continue if we continue to send this many people to university. Some jobs which now require degrees, never used to and there is also a real snobbishness if your child chooses not to go but to go into other areas of work such as plumbing, electricians etc. Or are we going to make those degree only jobs as well?

Olifin · 19/01/2010 23:51

I don't assume my DCs will get married or have children and I tell them they have a choice.

cory · 19/01/2010 23:54

Ah, see what you mean, mega. No quite agree.

Just saying something isn't bad, as long as you are quite sure that they are not going to feel failures if they don't do what you say.

I think "when you're a parent" is so vague that most people are able to handle that one: also most people don't end up in a position where they have to break the news to their parents aged 17 that actually, that will be never (even gays have children these days).

Whereas with university, you will have to pluck up that extra bit of courage to say, 'well, actually I want to do a plumbing course instead'.

cory · 19/01/2010 23:56

Interesting to hear what WWC would make of her dd opting to do plumbing. She can't possibly think that plumbing jobs have stopped existing, can she?

WashwithCare · 19/01/2010 23:56

By madwomanintheattic Tue 19-Jan-10 23:39:09
i went to the university of warwick.

i dropped out after two terms.

my father insisted that i go to the doctor to see if i was mental. (his words, not mine, in a carey-sort of voice.)

these days of course i'm writing my phd proposal, but i made 'em wait until my mid twenties before i bothered to go back and get a degree.

why i bothered posting on a wwc thread i have no idea. i love the patronising links too. v funny. (here we are children, this is what i mean by russell group)

are you a man, or a particularly officious kindergarten teacher, wwc?

LMFAO - I shoudl be in my bed.. but i couldnae resist...

I love the name... I once wrote a thesis entiteld "letting the mad woman out of the attic".... I love these dark romantic novels..

Glad you came onto my thread... let me find an appropriate quote... how about this...

It is by degrees I will bring you to mortificaiton.

Now I really must find my bed.. Wash. x

OP posts:
WashwithCare · 20/01/2010 00:01

By cory Tue 19-Jan-10 23:56:19
Interesting to hear what WWC would make of her dd opting to do plumbing. She can't possibly think that plumbing jobs have stopped existing, can she?

I will have to sleep on it, I think...

I've been reading books about the psychology of happiness that have been disrutping what I thought I knew, and thought I wanted.

I have also been re-evaluating what I personally want in life...

I still want DD to be able to read books about happines though....

I will get back to you... I'm too knackered to think tbh, - all the hormones!

OP posts:
cory · 20/01/2010 00:06

There is absolutely nothing that says that your dd cannot do plumbing in daytime and read books about happiness in the evenings. Unless her earlier education is likely to be so substandard that you do not expect her to be literate by the time she gets to decide on her career choices. A university is not the only place to learn to appreciate books.

larks35 · 20/01/2010 00:07

I'm sure this has been asked but when talking about your 3yo on "an unrelated issue", how did the immortal words "when DD goes to university" come into it?

My DP, who didn't go to uni and works blooming hard physically, has decided that DS is going to be a banker or an accountant. He is joking to a certain extent but basically doesn't want our DS to suffer the physical pain that he does, so I kind of understand.

I was the youngest of 4 in my family and the only one not to go to uni at 18. My dad was furious and we had a very soured relationship for years. I know now that he was just concerned, but at the time I felt ostracised from my family and it took a long time to heal that.

If you are serious OP, make sure you don't ostracise any of you DCs who decide to play life a little differently.

larks35 · 20/01/2010 00:08

DP is a plumber BTW, it is bloody hard work, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Quattrocento · 20/01/2010 00:24

I'd like my DCs to live their own lives, not mine. The chances are that they will go to university of course but I'd like to think that they could go and be trapeze artists and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

Quattrocento · 20/01/2010 00:41

"When I went to uni only 3% of school leavers did."

That's funny because when I went to university around 8% of school leavers went to university with a further 9% going to polytechnics and colleges of higher education. As I am nearly 43, I can only assume you must be tremendously old. As old, in fact as my mother. When she went to university in the sixties only around 3% of school-leavers went to university. So that must make you around about 70.

WWC, is this you?

midori1999 · 20/01/2010 01:00

saintlydamemrsturnip

"I have no idea whether my children will go to university. I know barring a miracle ds1 won't ( he's 10 years old and has one word). Ds2 and ds3 will hopefully do whatever makes them happiest.

God I'm pleased we have him to give us perspective. "

Quite. My DS3 has Downs and will never be 'successful' in the way society would view success. I will never forget being told when he was born by someone else who's child has Downs that 'peopel are always saying they want their child to be happy, but what they often really mean is that they want them to be successful. Having a child with Downs makes you realise that you do actually just want your child to be happy'.

It is SO true.

My DH's parents hated the fact he left school with no qualifications and joined the army. They couldn't stop telling everyone how their wonderful DS2 went to uni and was now an aeronautical engineer. Now that DH has progressed and done extremely well in his chosen career and actually earns more than his brother, they have to tell everyone. What a shame, Dh's brother hates his job and DH often says he looks forward to going in to work every single day. How many people can say that after almost 20 years?!

frakkinaround · 20/01/2010 04:43

By 2010aQuintessentialOdysse... Tue 19-Jan-10 22:26:15
She said she was a tutor. In my uni, third year students were tutoring first year students, they were effectively tutors. Not to be confused with a lecturer, or a professor, or a doctor.

Well in that sense of the word I've tutored at a Russell Group university and at the the Sorbonne.

Anyway:

You can assume all your like that your DD will go to university. In fact you sound very like my parents who have 7 degrees between them and rather assumed that all their offspring would go down the multiple degree route. Their 3 children have one degee between them and that's because I was stood over and forced to fill in my UCAS form, deferred a year, eventually went because my parents practically packed for me and drove me there, got a 2.i (from a Russell Group university....) and then went and trained and worked as a nanny then maternity nurse and then EFL teacher. Then I got married to someone in the military and moved halfway across the world shooting my career prospects down just when I'd decided I might go back to uni and then get a proper job. I wasn't that interested in uni at 18. Or 19. Or by the time it got to my final year which is why I only got a 2.i much to the frustration of my supervisors. Now I'm going to do a degree in a subject which is practical and that I'm interested in. Hurrah for the OU. My DSis did A-levels and went to work for Nationwide and is now worming her way up the ranks of the Civil Service rather quickly. My brother quit school after GCSEs, trained to do something with computers and is now 17 and earning £20k.

Uni is not the be all and end all. It's about a lot more than a degree. In fact my degree is the least valuable thing I got from uni because it's now so undervalued EVERYONE has one. Unless you're a nanny in which case there's a distinct advantage to be had still. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I have it but it really has no practical use and I wish I'd waited a few years to really work out what I wanted from life before doing it. As it was I made the wrong choice with my undergrad which means I need to play catch-up to do a postgrad in an area which interests me and I actually want to work in.

If your DD wants to go and do physiotherapy or nursing is that a proper subject? Because my top 10 in the country school didn't think nursing was a proper profession for all the degrees it requires. Nor was primary teaching. According to them I was going to do law. Or medicine. Or a proper subject which would lead to a job at Deloittes. Don't make the mistakes that parents inspired by the 80s did and remember that your DDs happiness is far more important than anything ele. It's fine to hope she will go to university and treat university as the norm but you can achieve without going to uni straight after school. In fact a lot of successful, happy and balanced people (because all three are important) trained for a job they loved later in life. Yes, a degree is a prequisite for many jobs now but you can't expect children of 15 to know what they want to do when they pick their A-levels, or children of 17 to make the best choices about uni. Of coure if I had my way I'd make everyone do the IB, bring back a year of national service and apply for uni the term after you get your results but hey ho!

There's a difference between assuming that your DD will follow the new 'norm' for education and go to university and assuming, without any reference to her wishes, that she will go to university. The former is okay and, in fact, a good thing. The latter is just plain silly and will not make your children successful, happy or balanced which is what I think most parents want for their child. I assume that my currently-non-existent children will go to university but if they want to turn round and tell me that actually they'd like to be a plumber and read books about happiness in the evenings then that's fine by me because a plumber is a jolly useful person to have in the family. Of course we'll have degrees in plumbing but then though!

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 20/01/2010 04:56

I think it's so funny that 'plumber' is what's come up as the alternative model to 'university educated'. We always say that we hope our daughter becomes a plumber, because - well, it'd be really handy to have a plumber in the family when we're older, have you seen how much they charge??? But really, we mean it as a shorthand for 'be whoever she wants' since; women so rarely do get encouraged into tradesperson jobs; we're both university educated white collar deskbound types so she's already got that role model; I get a bit sick of my mum friends boasting about how much their children already like books as if it's so damn important to be bookish; I'm a lawyer and we (along with doctors) have the highest rates of depression, drug dependency and stress of any profession, so why would I ever want to encourage my daughter to follow in those footsteps?

But who knew that 'plumber' was such a meme?

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 20/01/2010 04:57

Incidentally, she, along with the children of the boastful My Child Is So Literary mothers, is one year old. So I have plenty of time to project my fantasy future onto her yet.

nooka · 20/01/2010 05:23

I expect my children to go to university, as my parents expected me and my siblings to go to university. It never felt like a pressure to me, I just assumed that education finished at 21, as that is what everyone in my family did, and what most of my friends did too (apart from the ones that went to college to learn how to be hairdressers). My children are 9 and 10 now and we have talked in general terms about what they might study, and the fun they might have. I don't really see university as being the passport to a well paidjobs, but as a good time for growing up, and the opportunity to study something you really enjoy. I will encourage them to find a course that suits them, wherever that is offered.

I don't do all this university snobbery mostly because just because a university is good at research does not mean they will be good at teaching. I was went to a faculty which is world renowned in it's field, but where the tutors really didn't much like teaching undergraduates (they got their research students to do much of the seminars and only lectured for two terms in the year). Whereas dh at the same university, but a different fairly run of the mill faculty had much much better teaching and support.

violethill · 20/01/2010 06:45

I'm still wondering if the OP genuinely went to a RG University - I would hope if she did and got the full benefit of that experience, she'd be a little more insightful and free thinking! Maybe she never went to University at all and is projecting all her unfulfilled aspirations onto her child...... Very bad idea.

From my own personal experience, I loved my 5 years studying at RG Universities, and as nooka says, it's about so much more than a passport to a well paid career.

However things have changed dramatically since the days when the 3% of the population went. I don't believe University is the experience it used to be - it's now about running up huge debt, often living at home with parents anyway, and doesn't necessarily lead to great things.

I'm also aware that out of the pool of really well educated highly qualified people I know, that fact doesn't necessarily ensure a happy and fulfilling life. My ex Oxbridge friend has just gone through a horrible messy divorce, while friends of mine in the legal profession.... hmmm, one is an alcoholic and the other is lovely but hardly has a high flying career as she hasn't worked since giving birth 11 years ago.

I fear the OP is being very naive thinking that a good University will automatically = happy, successful, fulfilled adulthood!

WidowWadman · 20/01/2010 07:04

Well, I kind of assume that my daughter will go to uni, but this doesn't mean I'd be disappointed if she didn't. It's just that both her parents love learning, so it's pretty natural to assume and yes, also hope, that we pass on some of that love.

Why does education always attract so much snide?

cory · 20/01/2010 08:22

Education hasn't attracted any snide on this thread, Widow. The only thing that attracts snide is the idea that as a mother you get to choose your children's future. If you read the threads carefully, you will find that some of us who argue against WWC are passionately interested in education: that is precisely why we don't want to end up with students who are only there because Mummy said so and because it's expected of someone from a privileged background.

saintlydamemrsturnip · 20/01/2010 09:39

midori you said that someone said to you:

"I will never forget being told when he was born by someone else who's child has Downs that 'peopel are always saying they want their child to be happy, but what they often really mean is that they want them to be successful. Having a child with Downs makes you realise that you do actually just want your child to be happy'. "

That just took my breath away it is so true.

We weren't aware of ds1's disabilities until he was older (he's severely autistic with severe learning disabilities) and we often muse how it changed our expectations and wishes for all our children.