To expect DD to go to university?

[WashwithCare]

Chatting away on an unrelated issue, I uttered the immortal words "when DD goes to universtiy"... another mother immediately jumped in. She chided that I couldn't just "assume" DD would either want or be able to go to university..

DD is 3 and has just started pre-school. However, I definitely do ASSUME she will go to University, and not just any University, but a "good" one to boot. Preferably to do a 'proper' subject.

AIBU?

Cory - tbh, it just sounds like you had particularly pushy parents, and you haven't really resolved your issues with them.

My parents wanted me to leave school and take a job filing. They had no education themselves, and worked in hard manual jobs all their life - so working as a filing clerk was their idea of a good outcome - esp for a girl, who wasn't going to get married and have babies soon.

They were actively opposed to me going to unversity. They didn't like the idea of their 18 year old DD disappearing to the other side of the country etc etc. They also thought it was pointless because they expected me to want children in my early 20s.

But it was too late... they had wanted me to value education and do well . Their interpretation of this was being a filing clerk - but to achieve that they had paid money they didn't have for extra tutition, and helped me stay to do A levels. So by 18, much against their will, I rebelled and went to University.

My interepretation would be this. My parents were great. Their expectations instilled a love of learning. It didn't quite turn out how they expected it - but it was a good outcome - and one which they drove.

All this warbling about not having expectations, letting children live their own life and so on is just way too simplistic..

I think you should forgive your parents... they were probably just doing their best!

Cory - have just read your last post - have this nasty feeling we may in furious agreement.

How deeply disappointing!

WWC, I don't think my parents were particularly pushy: I didn't say they pushed my brother into music, just that it was a very privileged environment and that that still did not confer the ability or the interest. They accepted both my brothers' choices not to go to uni (despite being passionately academic themselves), so that can hardly be described as being very pushy.

My other brother and I went to university and got PhDs because we wanted to, our parents did not influence our choice of subjects and were supportive throughout.

Admittedly, my Mum slipped up with the sewing and beautiful home arranging thing- but that was the only time she did try to impose something on her children and the point was, it failed dismally. She did far, far better all those times when she let us be ourselves and make our own choices.

Going to sea or setting up a computer firm wouldn't have been choices either of my parents would have made for themselves in a hundred years. But they were wise enough to hold their tongues- and the result has borne out the wisdom of that.

Just re-read your previous post, and yes, I can see that I would have reacted differently if my own upbringing had been different. What I seem to have taken from my own upbringing is a sense of when things worked for us- and when they didn't. And one thing I think they got right is that they started gently treating us as more and more adult, so we were already used to decision making by the time we moved from home; they didn't seem to have a big problem with letting go, I always felt they trusted me to be mature. And I feel that called out the best in me, a very genuine desire to be mature.

lol - I had the opposite experience. I was always in constant conflict. They hated everything I chose, almost on blinking principle... boyfriends, clothes, uni... you name it....

Looking back, it was probably because all my choices were so alien to them.

After not wanting me to go to uni at all, they furious opposed me choosing law (I did a general degree).. they even hated the fact that I went back and did a pt MPhil as it was apparently a total waste of time.

Now that I have all the things they wanted for me in the first place (nice house, DH, children, good job) they have miraculously forgotten they ever objectived... Though I think it is was becasue they were scared and wanted the best - rather than selfish people..

But I still think it was their (high) expectations that drove me, and I will always be greatful.

Apologies if I have unjustly accused your aprents of pushines... I must have got the wrong end of the stick!

By cory Thu 21-Jan-10 12:59:09
Litchick Thu 21-Jan-10 12:49:51
"That's sad, Cory, what are they so unhappy about?
Is the work? Financialpressure? Are they not suffiectly prepared to leave home?"

Well, I'm not in counselling, so I can't tell what problems the students have who go there. I imagine some have the kind of problems they would have anywhere (mental health, illness, boyfriends).

I did work in student advice and counselling (at a Russell Group university ...) and some of the issues students faced were...

Financial pressure: student loans aren't enough, you have to find a job, you've not really had one before, your job interrupts your studies, you don't undertand the forms you need to fill out to get support
Homesickness: particularly in the first few weeks but also around this time of year
Some kind of trauma: assualt, drink spiking, burgulary etc which often happens for the first time as a young adult and is likely to happen when you're at uni far from home and the support you get there
Relationship problems: either with an existing partner or forming a new relationship at uni and falling out with people
Loneliness: it's difficult to establish a new set of friends and some people are very slow burners and don't enter into friendships lightly
Finding work too hard: they've forgotten everything from their A-levels, don't have the study skills, don't know how to use the library
Not enjoying their course: it's changed drastically, they've discovered they don't like the subject, they got bad careers advice at school and it isn't actually suitable
Pressure from home: only being there because their parents insisted, school insisted or because it was what all their friends were doing
Housing problems: not being used to living in student conditions either because they had to share for the first time or because they came from priviliged backgrounds and it was a drop in the standard of living, having to deal with the legal side of contracts, deposits, paying bills, transferring names on accounts - all things we take for granted as adults which are immensely stressful when you do them the first time and doubly so if you get them wrong because not many people give you slack for being 18
Sexuality: huuuuuge topic but mostly experiencing strange feelings about a member of the same sex, questioning and actually coming out OR being able to be openly gay at uni and worrying about hiding it when they get home

Some of those are generic problems, some of them are very specifically related to university. One a complete aside it makes me so that there isn't specific training for university tutors/lecturers/professors who do have pastoral/welfare roles on the problems students face. Not a criticism of you personally cory as you sound a lovely person and very caring, but some tutors aren't like that at all and just have no idea of even the most obvious things.

you may end up with a very high achieving daughter who goes to university and gets post graduate qualifications etc but wants to disown you because of the pushy and unsupportive way you went about it

Thanks RaspberryCheesecake. Just a stab in the dark here, but do you think you might just be projecting your unresolved issues with your parents onto my relationship with my daughter?

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Well maybe, but your own posts since seem to reflect a deal of unresolved issues with your parents, I guess it is a universal theme we all have to live with. I am sure you know how to correct things and do things right with your daughter.

''what parent would be equally happy with whatever choice their child made? '

I am happy with their choices. Obviously we influence, education is highly valued in our house and we are very supportive of the school, books are everywhere, DH and I have a work ethic and we wouldn't have a day off for 'a sickie' etc. The expectation is that they will aim for a job that is fulfilling-that is what they have seen since birth. However that is as far as it goes-they do all of the above but university isn't important-unless it is necessary for their choice.

I have known a 'golden boy' who did it all right;through to a top university -and then he committed suicide aged 19, so I would be wary of 'pushing'.

Piscesmoon - what a disgusting thing to say. Are you implying his parents drove him to commit suicide? As if they haven't enough to contend with... how can you possibly make such a nasty remark when you can't possibly know what motivated him?

I wasn't implying anything!! His parents are lovely and devastated-they were very supportive-of course they didn't drive him! They would have told him to leave if they had known he had problems. Sadly he didn't feel able to tell them and he took what to him was the only way out. It was a waste of life and if he had got through it he would have looked back and seen that leaving university didn't matter and his parents would have been only too thrilled if he had gone and been a car mechanic or anything else. Somewhere along the line there was expectation-he got the idea that he couldn't tell them. My point is that I wouldn't start telling a 3 yr old, or other people that your 3yr old will go to university. Maybe they won't - and they won't have failed.

All DCs are different. Some thrive on parents who ask them why they lost 3% if they get 97%, others are crushed. You can't tell which you have at the age of 3 yrs.

whatever happened to just hoping your children will grow up to be happy well rounded individuals?

That is what I hope, littlemissfixit!

I went to a "proper" uni and did a "proper" subject and at the grand old age of 31 I'm only now qualifying into a proper career and earning a "proper" salary. And I have worked for the last 10 years, very hard.

I'm afraid anyone who thinks a first in English from Oxford is going to set their child up for a glittering career is heading for a fall.

My son can do what he likes when he is 18, but if I had any temptation to intefer either way I would say that he's not going to university unless to study a proper vocational course which leads to a specific qualification and employment.

tispity - the chap who owns the hair salon I use has just graduated with a L'Oreal Professionnel Colour Specialist Degree! I kid you not!

Though having googled it I'm not entirely sure that L'Oreal's definition of a degree is the same as a University's.

I was "strongly" discouraged by my family to follow the course of education I wanted to follow. And pushed encouraged into another course that my heart wasn't in to. It all went terribly wrong and upset everyone of course. Big change of plan.

I think I was lucky - I was always quite bright, and willing to work and improve myself, so it turned out OK. 20 odd years on I wonder how much better I might have done if I had been "allowed" to do what I was actually interested in from the start. How much more fulfilling my professional life might be....

I swear i will never do that to my daughter. Hopefully in 12 years or so I won't need to be reminded of this....

Well I've told my children that university is where you go for a good time, study something interesting, meet lots of people and generally have fun. I don't think that they see it as anything scary or worrying, and I don't think they should. They are both starting to get an idea of what they might like to do in the future, and it's fun to watch them think these things through. I'm sure they will change their minds many times in the next few years. I certainly did. I'd much rather have a family like mine which had high expectations, than my dh's who (outside of his immediate family) still see him as a layabout because he stayed on at school past 16.

I don't recall my university having any pastoral support to be honest, (and I did have friends that probably needed it) but I do think that children shouldn't go straight from school to university. I grew up a huge amount during my year out, and it is my expectation that my children will do the same (especially if we stay in Canada where they finish school a year earlier).

As to what they study, or if they have an alternative path, then so long as it is well thought through I'll support them, but I do expect them to go to university. My dear father started a savings account for them each both from birth "for their year out". Now that really is having expectations!

'Well I've told my children that university is where you go for a good time, study something interesting, meet lots of people and generally have fun'

This is what my DS did! He thinks it worth the money and wouldn't have missed it for the world. It was good for him, he had to manage on his own and grow up. From that point of view I think it was good, but I would question the expense and whether it is actually worth it in the job stakes. They come out and find that the world doesn't owe them a living-in fact no one is terribly impressed! (and he went to a Russell group university wuth a science based degree).
It certainly isn't the be all and end all-there are other routes that get you to the same place i.e. a job you love;without the expense.
If you are one of those who assumes that your 3 yr old will go, I would start a saving plan now!

Thanks frakkinaround for the pastoral info; that was interesting; pretty well what I would have thought.

I guess the money thing is the big difference for us (in our generation). However having left the UK we'll be paying through the teeth wherever we send them, so saving is pretty much compulsory. In fact my father suggested Ivy League, so I'm busy encouraging their sporting prowess (there are many bursaries etc in the US system). Actually I'm not at all, that they will go to university is my assumption, I have no intention of applying any pressure, apart from that I would do anyway, to work hard and do as well as possible.

I don't personally see anything wrong with reading a "bookish" subject. I read economics at LSE. It was a really excellent course, with access to technically good academics and talented post docs, who gave me a framework for thinking about the world that I hadn't had before.. And it was London... which was an amazing place for an 18 year old!

Afterwards, I travelled around for a year - so kind of had my gap year in reverse iyswim, which was the right think for me, as I was a bit more savvy by then. Then I went to Uni and did law.

I've never used my economics degree, as in practicsed as an economist - so it wouldnt' have mattered if I'd done another "bookish" subject - but it was defintely the right choice for me.

I've never really been out of work, and earn a higher than average salary. I went to Uni at a time when tehre were grants not loans, but even if I had had to pay - financially it woudl have been well worth it.

I'm glad I got to do ecnomics for 3 years... I don't think I would have had the confidence to choose law at 18 - and besides, I had fun, learnt a lot and grew up too...

If DD wanted to do a degree in nursing (or some other vocational type choice), I would worry that she was closing her options down to quickly. 18 is a very young age to settle a course for the rest of your life!