To expect DD to go to university?

[WashwithCare]

Chatting away on an unrelated issue, I uttered the immortal words "when DD goes to universtiy"... another mother immediately jumped in. She chided that I couldn't just "assume" DD would either want or be able to go to university..

DD is 3 and has just started pre-school. However, I definitely do ASSUME she will go to University, and not just any University, but a "good" one to boot. Preferably to do a 'proper' subject.

AIBU?

WWC, if 30 years is too long ago- what about my nephew with the carpentering firm? He is in his early twenties but doing very nicely.

Where would I draw the line? Where the child comes of age certainly. After that, they have as much right to decide as you have- or more if it's about their own lives. Or do you expect you parents to still have the right to tell you what you may work at?

But actually, I think you should start letting a child have a say earlier than this. My nephew would not be in such a good position if he hadn't been allowed to do a college course that focused on carpentering and business skills: by the time he left school, he knew exactly what to do.

Smiling sweetly doesn't come into it: I mark blind and my second-marker has never set eyes on them.

Agreed - but smiling seems to be effective in securing some extra tuition from you perhaps?

Very few people who manage to finish the course are going to fail.

The only person I can think of who failed their degree is Ursuala (in the DH Lawrence novel) but I am sure there is the other odd one....

wwc the typo on 'educaition' scares me more

sorry WWC not looking good for Baby WWC and Russell group Sutton 13

WWC

I think there is quite a high chance of your daughter growing up to resent you if you insist on being so pushy.

Damn, can't believe someone beat me to it on spotting your spelling error.

Admit it, this is all about the s isn't it?

Ursula

Hang on, let me try something:

Speaking as a lecturer at a Russell Group university (since that kind of thing seems to matter to you - it doesn't to me, and many of the colleagues I hold in the highest esteem work at post-1992 institutions) I can assure you that we really don't want your daughter to come if the only reason she is at university is because her Mum told her she'd be a failure if she didn't go.

We want your daughter if she is well-informed about the expectations we have of students in higher education, has a passion for her chosen subject and really wants to learn. Sadly we get lots of students every year who are doing courses they have no interest in because they were told they'd get a good job at the end of it. They struggle because they are bored, and many of them drop out. Some of them lose all passion for learning as a result.

Speaking as a daughter I can tell you that the wisest thing my mother ever did was leave me to make up my own mind about what I wanted to do with my life. At 18 I had no desire to go to university and was strongly motivated by working for a charity I had previously volunteered for so I went and got a job there instead. I only applied to university 4 years later at a point when I had identified a subject that was related to my previous work experience which I was hugely enthusiastic about. I had never previously considered studying this subject, but since I've now got a bachelors, masters and PhD in it (and teach and research it for a living) it appears to have been a good choice!

My mum never nagged me about going to university even though I had reasonable A level grades. At every point she made it clear that she supported the choices I was making and thought that I was wise enough to make good ones. The confidence this gave me was invaluable. I knew that someone I trusted thought I was making good decisions, and also that if for some reason I didn't succeed she would never reproach me or say 'I told you so' for changing tack.

Nobody knows where your daughter's talents will lie or what is going to make her happiest. She'll teach you that as she gets older, you cannot pre-ordain it.

By Olifin Tue 19-Jan-10 22:03:48
WWC:

As a former tutor at a Russell Group University, would you say that your daughter's likelihood of going to University might be impeded my her mother's inability to spell privileged?

Are you sure you are a former University tutor?

I don't think my spelling or typing for that matter will have much effect - I think it says more about how often I type in auto-correcting word processing packages, and about how fast I touch type.

Being a tutor at a University is really no big deal - it's just means there was a point in your life when you were studying and fiendishly poor. The pay was crap too.

yup. I must make a complaint about the biscuits.

"Carpentering"? Is that anything like carpentry?

WashwithCare Tue 19-Jan-10 22:07:27

"Very few people who manage to finish the course are going to fail."

Not true at our university. And anyway, if you leave before the end of the course, because you have failed so many units that you know you cannot pass the overall mark, then surely that is a failure? Not that rare, I assure you.

Maybe you were prepared to lower standards so that nobody could possibly fail your exams? I am not.

Besides, I doubt that I could get away with it even if I wanted to, seeing that all assignments and exams are second-marked and a good many also have to pass the external examiner.

But I have no desire to pass work that is not up to scratch. It makes no difference if the student's parents expect her to succeed: I work to set standards. I am always willing to help explaining how to achieve those standards but I cannot be my students' brains and I don't come into the exam room with them.

Lilymaid Tue 19-Jan-10 22:20:53
"Carpentering"? Is that anything like carpentry?"

Lilymaid, afraid so; the victim of multi-tasking (am writing something else in another language in another window and clearly getting overtired). But my nephew is still doing nicely out of his windows and floors, so I don't think anyone intends to kick his butt.

i personally still care about what university my dcs choose to apply to... does no one in education care anymore about the poly/university thing?

She said she was a tutor. In my uni, third year students were tutoring first year students, they were effectively tutors. Not to be confused with a lecturer, or a professor, or a doctor.

Veronica - well of course - all sound points.

However, there is just a tweeny weensy problem with your argument. Parental expectations are generally much nore subtle than that... DD will grow up in a household wiht 1000s of books, she will travel, she will be exposed to 100s of experiences... my underlying assumption might be that she attends university - that doesn't mean I get up every day and say study law at Bristol..

Similarly lots of kids will grow up in households where no one expects them to study at uni... and they probably won;t.

Passion for learning is a fine ideal I share - but it doesn't often come into it if nobody assumed learning was great in the first place.

Depends on what you mean by care? Firstly, I would want my dcs to go to university only if they were interested and this was the best way to achieve their goals- and of course if they could cope with it. Secondly, I would want them to go to the place that has the best courses in the subjects they actually want to do. Having an overall reputation isn't going to help if the department they are in is not good. So it's far more complex than just poly/university.

Washwithcare, I got bored of reading just here, when you said:

'The probability of a baby going to university can basically be quite accurately predicted if you know the parental educaiton and income. Sorry - sad, but true!'

You're talking crap. What you mean is that one can predict the proportion of children who will go to university, who belong to this socio-economic group. But what you have is a real child, who already brings other factors into play. What if she already belongs to another subgroup you've not noticed yet? Perhaps she has autism, like the lovely son of a friend of mine, who looked very bright when he was 3. Just an example, but do you not see that you're being silly?

Not true at our university. And anyway, if you leave before the end of the course, because you have failed so many units that you know you cannot pass the overall mark, then surely that is a failure? Not that rare, I assure you.

The thing about the drop out rate is that at the older unis is really not that bad...

Maybe you were prepared to lower standards so that nobody could possibly fail your exams? I am not.

Well, I never set exams... I was just tutoring to keep body and soul together...

But c'mon... standards have been sliding so fast, you can barely see them whizz by.. I think when they started dividing firsts.. that was beginning of the end...

PS - at Oxford, a 'tutor' is the person who supervises you - certainly a faculty member, quite likely a professor, maybe a celebrated professor. Terms vary from place to place. Let's not be so down a the title, eh?

Notanotter, I work in an University and I do care about the course, department and institution my children end up in, if they choose to go.

But making an ex poly/old uni divide is a bit simplistic. There are likely to be huge shakeups of HE over the next 10-15 years, so it is really a bit early to say where our DCs should go.

I hope (although I don't have high hopes) that one of the shake ups is in social background and entrance, so that it becomes absurd for anyone, however 'super-high earning' to assume that their child has a right to one of only a small number of places available at the research universities.

By NotAnOtter Tue 19-Jan-10 22:25:49
i personally still care about what university my dcs choose to apply to... does no one in education care anymore about the poly/university thing?

YES, of course they do... why do you think you have things like the Russell Group?

ESRC are introducing 5 elite doctoral training centres, research funding is highly concentrated - the rate of return on degrees varies greatly too...

NOBODY, nobody thinks an economics degrees from Luton Uni is good as one from LSE

Tutor can mean different things:

a student who is tutoring to eke out their loan

a qualified scholar who is working on a temporary contract (many universities keep significant parts of their staff on temporary contracts for years on end, so it says little about the status of the person in question, they may be as qualified as a lecturer)

or (which is the sense in which I used it of myself) somebody on a permanent contract
(with a PhD and an established research record) who deals with students as their tutor. We don't know which the OP was. Personally, I hope she did not have too much of a pastoral role, as something seems to tell me that she might not be ideally suited to this.

interesting Milly
my dcs are both old teens and babies so i have a foot in bothcamps

What's this about dividing Firsts? We only have Firsts, then 2:1s, then 2:2s, then 3:s, and anything below 40% is a failure.

Secondly, I would want them to go to the place that has the best courses in the subjects they actually want to do. Having an overall reputation isn't going to help if the department they are in is not good. So it's far more complex than just poly/university.

Very true. You need to get a sense of the research strengh - look at the RAE result.. then plum for the student guides and surveys and then speak to people and ask around...