Potential fraud?

[DontKnowWhatToDoNext]

I am prepared to be flamed so go ahead but WWYD in my situation?

In brief - DH and I split up last year. 6 months ago, I lost my job due to depression and have since started getting better, have been living on benefits since then with DH paying maintenance for our 3 DCs. I have been desperately trying to get another job but my sickness record at my last job has gone against me. Last month, I was given notice to quit my rented house because the landlord wants to sell - runs out end of Jan.

Over the last few months DH and I have been giving our relationship another go and fell into bed last month (definitely not planned) and I have just found out I'm pregnant which was not supposed to happen . We have discussed it at length and want to get back together (we split up because we have been through a lot of shit over the last few years and blamed each other and basically were hating each other all the time). Time apart has helped sort that out and he has been round almost everyday to see the kids so they have not been that badly affected.

Now I had been to the council (before I found out about the pregnancy) and told them that I am about to be made homeless and they basically said that I would have to find another private rent or they would put me in a B&B.

Now bad as this sounds, I want to try for a council house (even if it means a B&B for a few months as the rents are so high in this area (1000 for a passable 3 bed and now I will need a 4 bed which will be about 1200) so do not intend to get back with DH 'officially' until this happens. DH works but only brings in about 1800 a month and we will never be able to live on his wage in private rented especially as I won't be able to work with a baby and I can't stand the insecurity of having to move all the time (we have moved 3 times in the last 3 years). I am also bankrupt and will not be able to private rent unless I have a guarantor which I don't! Part of the reason for the problems with DH and I were financial as we lost everything (including our own home) when his business went under a few years back. He will also have to go bankrupt soon as his debts have been hanging around and with another child to pay for, he will not be able to pay them.

DH has his own flat and is not actually living with me so AIBU and a total scumbag to try and get a council house as a single parent??

Marantha how would you feel about the OP if she snatched the house you had been waiting for from you. Leaving you and your children in disgusting conditions. I presume you would be fine with this, despite knowing that she has plenty of other options, and just wants the house for cheap rent.

*Serenity..." I'm sorry but nobody can predict the future. The OP can genuinely argue that at the time of her giving the information to the council, she did not know whether she was getting back with her spouse- I'm no lawyer either, but, yes, she could argue that she is no clairvoyant and did not forsee the getting back together bit.

You know what, because I am aware that people do not know what is ahead of them, I would be prepared to at least give OP benefit of doubt when they said that they didn't know at the time they were getting back together.

Unless proof of financial transactions is obtained- cheque stubs and the like- it can be awfully hard to know if money has changed hands between two people.
If it didn't, then she has committed no "crime", anyway.
How does anyone know whether he or not he stayed in the home? Even if he did stay, they could argue that he was there for the sake of his child.

I wonder if the court would read her posts on MN and take them as evidence?

It seems a pretty foolish thing to do, to bare your soul here about committing fraud, and naively thinking no one might see it.

I don't think any one could prove intent unless they had evidence. (as in MN poss!), nad it became a court case.

But premeditation is part of the law ,as seen so often in cases of murder.v manslaughter.

I think the bottom line is that the OP knows this, she knows it is morally suspect- otherwise why ask us- but she is going ahead anyway.

Save your breath ladies- go and make some mince pies or something, as she ain;t listening any more.

I wanted to reply to this thread yesterday but DS2's latest game is to turn the switch on my computer plug off so couldn't....

I had wanted to say that I thought that the OP was justified. As long as she is not cohabiting with her DH, then she is perfectly entitled to apply to the council or whoever she likes for accommodation. If she is lucky enough to get a new build 4 bedroom house, then good for her. Why is she less deserving than other people? I know of plenty of people in council houses who are on benefits, working cash in hand, earning undeclared income and yet living rent free with their BMWs parked outside. There is a family down the road from me where the parents are drug dealers. Why should they be housed at public expense when they are clearly so undeserving???

Maybe she is playing the system a bit - but that's different to cheating. I don't see why the OP should have to live in a small, badly maintained, overpriced private rent with the proverbial water running down the walls just because people on here take offence to the very idea of someone having something for nothing.

We are assuming the council will automatically give her some luxury new build; of course, more likely she will be put in a B&B and then be given a 3 bedroom flat on a high rise on a grim estate. But if it is cheap and secure and what she can afford, then why not? Good luck to the OP. I havent read all the posts since yesterday but there seems to be some suggestion of abortion. Did someone say she should abort????? (Am off to read all the other posts now)

No actually, jaquelinehyde I wouldn't be fine with it at all. I'd hate it. Fortunately, and there but for the grace of god and all that I am not in that position.
I'm just trying to separate my moral feelings from the fraud aspect here. I wish others would do the same.

Tryharder - a social and personal conscience comes into it when the 'other people are doing it, why shouldn't I!' card is thrown about.

Just cause other people have no norals doesn't mean it si ok to stoopthat low yourself.

And she clearly knows it is wrong as she posted this thread in the first place.

Well, I'm a lawyer, only not a criminal lawyer, so I can't say for certain what is taken into account. If she has been as indiscrete in RL as she has been on MN regarding her intentions, I'm sure they'd be able to build a case against her. And the thing is, yes, you never know what might happen, but it seems her intention is not to be honest. Anyway - we each have our opinions.

Sorry if someone has already said this (havnt time to read the whole thread, really SHOULD be doing housework!) My DP earns more than OPs and we have two DCs I dont work and I still get £200pm in Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit, that should mean with 4 kids they should get at least £400 a month (please feel free to correct me), plus may even be entitled to HB - add that to his 1800 pm that is not the breadline its not even close! ALso surely if you have the choice to bring your kids up on a council estate or in private housing, you would go private?? Before council estate dwellers flame me...I did say if you have the choice! I grew up on council estate it wasnt awful but when my mum was lucky enough to be housed in a council house but not in a council esstate it was much nicer, went to better school etc etc....

Thank you for answering that Marantha.

As far as fraud goes, only the OP truely knows whether or not she is commiting it/going to be commiting it. In my mind her coming on hre with this question means that she knows that she is. However, this is a woman who claims that her council policy is to give one bedroom per child so it may all be lies.

Who knows, I don't care anymore. I just hope some poor sods life isn't made a misery because of this waste of space.

Merry Christmas everyone

Agreed. If her intention is to be dishonest, she is better off keeping quiet about it. Can't argue with you there!
Because if she TOLD me face-to-face that she INTENDED to be dishonest, I couldn't stand in a courtroom and deny it. If on the other hand, her and her husband just got back together and she hadn't told me this was her "Plan" from the outset I would have a very hard time deciding if it was "premediated" or not and would not be prepared to "convict" her for it.

All this is in the spirit of discussion and totally hypothetical by the way.

Yes. Completely.

But once and for all- espcially for you Marantha- the point in all of this is, as has been said before- that the OP does have a H who is capable of providing for his family? Even if they don't live together, now or ever, she could manage with his support and benefits?

I'd like to see him come on here and state his case, as surely he is the one who is answerable, having a reasonable salary and 3 kids to support- so he should be doing just that- by whatever means he can. Take 2 jobs even!

Yes, he bloody well should support his family.
But if he won't, that is hardly the OP's poster's fault.

Agree with that purplepeony.

At the end of the day, the point is, that the OP has a sense of entitlement. She wants, therefore she ought to have, without a thought for the people she might be depriving, who may be more deserving, and also without any concept that what she wants is being funded by - wow, get this, other mothers and fathers. TBH the OP sounds a bit thick. And yes, I am being judgemental, but there's a good evidence base - she has some strange ideas about council house policies, and also seems to think that morality = religion, which is utterly bizarre. But ignorance is no excuse for behaving selfishly. If the DH can support the family, and there are plenty of people who do that on less than £1800 a month, then why the hell shouldn't he be supporting them? And as purplepeony says, what about another job? I mean, two healthy adults, what's so radical about the idea of having two jobs between them?! Plenty of us do it.

Poor kids with parents like that!

She is telling us of her intention to 'play the system', and then justifies by saying 'she paid in for 16 years' and 'never taken anything out' so she's 'entitled'.

She takes no responsibility for the things that have happened in her/their lives, but expects 'us' (society at large) to 'make it ok' by providing her with a place to live (and she's told us she expects it to be very nice as she's entitled to it according to the council housing officer). Then we'll give her benefits so she can stay home with her child who was impulsively and recklessly conceived by a couple who are in no position to add to their family or support their child (emotionally, financially, place to live, etc).

The 'it isn't illegal though it may be immoral' thing riles me. What she is doing/proposes to do is wrong, wrong, wrong, but she is allowed it on a hairsplitting technicality.

The cynic in me wonders if she consciously or subconsciously 'allowed' herself to get pregnant because it could 'improve' her chances of being housed by the state?

Perhaps if the OP/her dh had to bear responsibility and suffer consequences for their poor choices, she (and others) would choose differently. Right now there is little incentive when we as a collective society make it comfortable so they don't 'suffer'.

I am happy to help those who are incapable of helping themselves. Or those who need help because they've hit a rough patch and need a hand to get back on their feet. I'm happy to subsidise the 'working poor' (as Expat calls them) - with the emphasis on 'working' as it indicates making an effort to be self-supporting.

But the OP? I strenuously object, and quite frankly am amazed at the number of people who are rushing to support her here.

Grrr........

you sound a bit like a spoilt brat. i also want a fucking FOUR bedroom house.

what makes you entitled???????????

and it is fraud - you are misrepresenting your situation. your dh is not moving back in so you can pretend to be a single parents.

well what about the other single parents that REALLY NEED what you're going to be stealing from them?

You said it warthog agree 100%

From what I understand of the "system", it is practically impossible to get a council house or benefits if you don't play the system or indeed lie in some way.

I have an ex-friend whose husband lost his job so she kicked him out and she's now getting her mortgage paid and income support - she calculated that she would be better off if he was not in the picture. (She's an ex friend because I thought her actions were terrible).

My brother's former live in partner refused to tell the tax credits people she was now conhabiting with my brother (who was working). She and him were living in her luxury 6 bedroom detached house with her kids, mortgage paid for by the tax payer, shedloads of tax credits (she had 3 children abandoned by former husband).

Benefit fraud is endemic in this country and I work in a related field so know what goes on. I really cannot get worked up by what the OP is proposing which is really quite minor and I cannot believe the vitriol on here. I have a friend who works in social housing and have been told that a large portion of the available housing is now being allocated to recent East European migrants (move here for work, move into rented, shared, substandard accommodation, then get pregnant or bring their kids here, apply to council, get rehoused). Are they any more or less deserving than the presumably British OP who has lived here all her life? I'm not passing judgement on this by the way before anyone jumps down my neck, just commenting on recent social trends.

Just like to add that i am one of the "idiotic" working poor, earn too much for benefits or assistance but not enough to do anything more than scrape by. So why don't I play the system? I think there are some people who can't get away with things and I am one of them.....

That's a thoughtful post Tryharder - and I don't think you come across as judgemental - you work in the field, you know what goes on.

The only thing I disagree with is your last sentence - I doubt the reason you don't play the system isn't simply because you feel you're the sort of person who'd get caught, it's because you have a sense of self worth which goes beyond ripping other people off. Bottom line is - there are people in life who put in as well as take. That's how society works. The money for council housing and benefits doesn't come from some nameless 'something' - it relies on most people playing fair - working hard, paying their way, limiting their family to what they can afford etc. People who cannot support themselves - the genuinely sick, disabled, elderly, then receive rightful support. Most people have enuogh intelligence plus a healthy enough moral compass to understand that. Some people, like the OP, don't.

Think things might be different if the Council asked:

"Are you in a relationship and hoping to move someone else in as your partner in the near future?'

Then well, maybe it would be fraud, but as far as I know, the Council doesn't ask about intentions

Have to say that I'm quite shocked that Council housing isn't based on need. Once you're in Council housing, then you're there permanently?

i think the vitriol is bubbling away because we ALL work hard and pay NI, yet we don't play the system.

i recognise that there are plenty of people worse off than me, and want them to be able to get the help, not because someone feels entitled to have a bigger house because they pay NI.

NI covers a lot of perks of our society, not just benefits. i take it the OP feels free to avail herself of the NHS? we ALL pay for that too.

i find the attitude that 'well everyone plays the system so why shouldn't i?' depressing.

as a society we should be putting pressure on the fraudsters to STOP, not just shrugging our shoulders, tutting and and looking the other way.

marantha, OP, classic DM posts . . . coincidence?

people play the system because the very-generous system allows it.

until that changes, it will continue to happen.

Uh?! expatinscotland What are you on EARTH are you onabout- is this some kind of conspiracy you're accusing me of here?
If so, your paranoia is unbelievable. I have never met or associated with anyone else on this site.
Why does anyone who disagrees with the norm get accused of being involved in some kind of "conspiracy" here? I've noticed it a few times now. It's "let all gang up on the people who disagree with the majority behaviour" and I tell you what, it's f***g unpleasant.

For what it's worth, if I had my way, once people had children as long as there was no abuse or cruelty between the two partners, they'd stick together until those children reached 18 - balls to their "feelings".
Yeah, Marantha the "loon" probably has more of a conservative attitude towards these things than many here.

However, I am able to separate my own morality from the OP's question about fraud, and IMO, I think she is bending the rules but is NOT breaking them.

I'd just like the OP to return, and explain exactly WHY she thinks she's entitled to a 4 bedroom house. We all know she wants one. So do I. I'd also quite like a BMW and a holiday in New York. Most of us realise that wanting something doesn't give you an automatic entitlement to get it by whatever means. In fact, most children start to learn that by about the age of 4 or 5. The OP is either a troll or very very stupid. Or both.