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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Potential fraud?

411 replies

DontKnowWhatToDoNext · 22/12/2009 14:30

I am prepared to be flamed so go ahead but WWYD in my situation?

In brief - DH and I split up last year. 6 months ago, I lost my job due to depression and have since started getting better, have been living on benefits since then with DH paying maintenance for our 3 DCs. I have been desperately trying to get another job but my sickness record at my last job has gone against me. Last month, I was given notice to quit my rented house because the landlord wants to sell - runs out end of Jan.

Over the last few months DH and I have been giving our relationship another go and fell into bed last month (definitely not planned) and I have just found out I'm pregnant which was not supposed to happen . We have discussed it at length and want to get back together (we split up because we have been through a lot of shit over the last few years and blamed each other and basically were hating each other all the time). Time apart has helped sort that out and he has been round almost everyday to see the kids so they have not been that badly affected.

Now I had been to the council (before I found out about the pregnancy) and told them that I am about to be made homeless and they basically said that I would have to find another private rent or they would put me in a B&B.

Now bad as this sounds, I want to try for a council house (even if it means a B&B for a few months as the rents are so high in this area (1000 for a passable 3 bed and now I will need a 4 bed which will be about 1200) so do not intend to get back with DH 'officially' until this happens. DH works but only brings in about 1800 a month and we will never be able to live on his wage in private rented especially as I won't be able to work with a baby and I can't stand the insecurity of having to move all the time (we have moved 3 times in the last 3 years). I am also bankrupt and will not be able to private rent unless I have a guarantor which I don't! Part of the reason for the problems with DH and I were financial as we lost everything (including our own home) when his business went under a few years back. He will also have to go bankrupt soon as his debts have been hanging around and with another child to pay for, he will not be able to pay them.

DH has his own flat and is not actually living with me so AIBU and a total scumbag to try and get a council house as a single parent??

OP posts:
pooexplosionsonthedustyroad · 23/12/2009 10:50

thesecond...I think its the OP's sense of entitlement and refusal to accept any personal responsibility that is pissing people off

violethill · 23/12/2009 10:57

Pooexplosions sums it up.

The OP (assuming it's genuine)has a completely irrational sense of entitlement.

She doesn't think £1800 is enough to live in the kind of house she wants. (So scale down your expectations and make do with 3 bedrooms not 4)

She doesn't want the uncertainty of living in private rented accommodation in case she has to move (Get real - plenty of people in these circumstances have to move)

She says she can't work because she's having a baby (Duh - no other mothers of babies work then, yea?)

Sounds like a troll to me (and a boring one at that) but if it is genuine, then wake up and join the real world, where people pay their own way and support the kids they choose to have.

thesecondcoming · 23/12/2009 11:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 23/12/2009 11:16

you know I couldn't give a shit where she's living, or whether she's working or not.

I just don't like the idea of pretending she's single (when she's already stated in her op that "Over the last few months DH and I have been giving our relationship another go" - and obviously going well enough to "fall" into bed) and claiming as such when she's not.

thesecondcoming · 23/12/2009 11:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

marantha · 23/12/2009 11:21

My goodness, what a judgemental bunch.

So people are not allowed to give their relationship another go now, are they?

As long as they are not cohabiting and no money is being given to OP by partner/husband (this would probably be undeclared income in dwp's eyes NOT cohabitation)I honestly do not see why they SHOULDN'T be allowed to give their relationship another go.

The dwp should be encouraging the OP to give the relationship another go, anyway, then IF he does move in and she declares it, it's one less claimaint on their books!

violethill · 23/12/2009 11:22

Crap piece of trolling anyway!

marantha · 23/12/2009 11:23

By the way "stability of relationship" is one of the criteria used by dwp to establish "couple status"- this relationship sure as hell doesn't sound stable to me!

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 23/12/2009 11:24

marantha - where did I say that? And thesecondcoming I don't think that makes any difference - sorry

And before you judge me for saying that - don't even bother, I've also done the splitting up for length of time, trying again thing, but it wouldn't even have crossed my mind to continue claiming I was single when I wasn't.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 23/12/2009 11:28

stability of relationship -

been giving their relationship another go for a couple of months
Discussed at length and decided they want to get back together.
He's been round everyday (now I don't know about any other lone parents - but when I single there was no way in hell DH was going to come round every day to see the kids!).

It's shit - but it's life, you get together with someone when you're single (whether that's your XP/H or someone new - you have to take the consequences).

thesecondcoming · 23/12/2009 11:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 23/12/2009 11:36

anyway hiding this thread now as having re-read all of the OP's comments on it she's fecking me right off and I don't need that right now

Merry Christmas everyone.

pooexplosionsonthedustyroad · 23/12/2009 11:40

Marantha, of course the OP is "allowed" to give her relationship another go, indeed getting pregnant I would have thought would be an incentive, but can she not do it without lying and cheating? Like a bloody grown up?

Tell the truth and apply for anything you are legitimately entitled for, and good luck with it. You never know what you might get. But if you do it with fraud and deception you will hopefully get caught and get into a lot of trouble.

violethill · 23/12/2009 11:43

Well said pooexplosions.

Lying and cheating is hardly a great example to be setting your own children either is it. Or perhaps the OP doesn't care how she raises her kids as long as she gets her 4 bed house and doesn't have to get off her arse and work

marantha · 23/12/2009 11:44

*Awas..." YOU didn't say that the dwp do- and at the end of the day it is THEIR view that counts.
As for your comment that he's been around everyday? Maybe he wants to spend time with his children.
If a couple are NOT cohabiting and no exchange of monies is taking place between them, I see absolutley no reason at all why they should not be trying to get back together.

If YOU do, you are wholly out of order.

People's sex lives are- and bloomin' well should be!- no business of the dwp UNLESS undeclared financial support is being given to the claimant!

jaquelinehyde · 23/12/2009 11:44

The fact is the OP knows that she is getting back with her h. What she is doing is putting it off until she bags herself a nice 4bed (yeah right) 3bed house, then she will have her h move in with her.

I could not give a rats arse what she does with her life, what I do care about is that someone who is in desperate need for social housing, is going to have it snatched away from them because of this nasty, selfish piece of work.

Next time you need help, I hope someone else who knows how to decieve the system whips in and snatches what you desperately need. Maybe you will have less sympathy for the OP then.

I'm also disgusted that she is going to put her children in a situation as harmful as staying in temporary accomodation (we all know how grim and dangerous it can be) when she has other options open to her. Who in their right mind does that unless they actually have no other choice.

SerenityNowAKABleh · 23/12/2009 11:50

Marantha, you asked earlier whether or not it was fraud. Arguably, under the definition given here, she is committing fraud, as she is planning on obtaining property/a pecuniary advantage and intends to decieve. From what she has said, she intends to have her DH move in, while claiming she's single. That is fraud. Arguably, depending on whether or not she has discussed this with her DH, there may also be conspiracy to commit fraud (so he knows that she wants to secure housing as a single mother, and then have him move in and not update the council on the change of status). If she does ge the house, and he moves in, and she doesn't inform the council, then that too would be fraud. Look up Fraud Act 2006

marantha · 23/12/2009 11:51

Yes, so she knows she will get back with her ex. What of it? As long as she declares a change of circumstance to the dwp, WHEN he moves in, I don't see that it is fraud.

Some people are incapable of separating the moral from the fraud aspect of this matter.

thesecondcoming · 23/12/2009 11:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SerenityNowAKABleh · 23/12/2009 11:55

From what she has said, she does not intend to tell them. That is fraud. That's the issue.

marantha · 23/12/2009 11:56

Serenity... how would a court room decide that she actually intended to deceive?
No really, how?
I agree 100% if DH moves in and she pretends to be single she is on dodgy ground, but I've never denied this.
I only argue against those who believe it is fraud EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT LIVING TOGETHER AND NO MONIES IS CHANGING HANDS.

SerenityNowAKABleh · 23/12/2009 11:56

And that is from the law, if you look at the fraud act:
"person is in breach of this section [commits faud] if he?
(a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is
under a legal duty to disclose, and
(b) intends, by failing to disclose the information?
(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss."

SerenityNowAKABleh · 23/12/2009 11:58

A court room would look at her actions up to the date. They would find out information on things like -what information she disclosed to the council. Whether or not she had informed them that there was a possibility that she and her DH were getting back together, or that she failed to mention this. That would indicate an intention to deceive. Proving mens rea (the mental element) of a criminal offence is difficult, but can be drawn from actions. I am not a criminal lawyer, but from what I know, it could be proven.

SerenityNowAKABleh · 23/12/2009 12:00

Also, if they may look at things (to see whether or not they were living as a couple) whether or not she accepted financial assistance from him, beyond his maintenance. Whether or not he was regularly staying at the house. A variety of things.

But obviously, regardless of what I and others say, you truly believe that she is not committing a fraud. So, I'm not going to argue this with you any further, because it's as useful as hitting your head against a brick wall.

violethill · 23/12/2009 12:08

Certainly sounds fraudulent.

But fraud aside, the most telling thing for me was the OP's post several pages back where she more or less said 'I just want to know whether it's illegal or not, I couldn't give a shit about the morality of it, because I don't believe in all that religious stuff'.

Morality has got fuck all to do with religion. I have no religious faith, but I damn well care about bringing up my kids to behave in a way that's morally good - ie: respecting others, not ripping each other off, giving as well as taking, not grabbing something to which you have no entitlement when others may be in greater need. That's basic humanity - nothing to do with religion.

If the OP is genuine, then I feel sorry for her children - not because they might end up in temporary accommodation or - god forbid- sharing a bedroom, but because their mother is so clearly ignorant about what basic morality means.