To object to prayers and hymns at school?

[Maitri]

DD (5) goes to a non-denominational school. The reason we chose the school is because it is not a church school despite having some very loose links with a local church. We're very happy for the school to celebrate Easter, Christmas and Harvest with the children as we are in a predominantly Christian society. DS used to go to the same school and I was really happy that in addition to Christmas etc, the children would make little divali lamps and would learn about other faiths' celebrations (we live in a very culturally un-diverse area). In recent months, the school's links with the church seem to have strengthened as the vicar puts in an appearance every week and DD comes home with a new prayer or a new hymn every couple of days. She's constantly talking about Jesus and "how sad it was that he had to die for us"(!). We balance it with the old line of "Well, some people believe that Jesus was a real person and some people believe that he wasn't...". There has been no mention whatsoever of other faiths.

I wanted other MNers' views on this as I'm considering talking to the headteacher about her views. What do you think?

I don't think that beleivers are stupid - just wrong. I'm sure I am wrong about quite a lot of things too. For instance I bought a house at the end of 2007.

They are just playing on your sympathies! Don't let'em get away with it ;) Bloody martyrs.

One of the main things we teach students in RME is to develop their critical thinking skills, how to analyse arguments and present their views in reasoned ways. Anyone here think they need to come to my classes?

Yes, but I'd rather it was called 'Philosophy' and had a wider brief.

'Why do schools not try and teach the very clear and easy-to-understand morality of logic, personal and societal responsibility and realising what is good and bad for one's self (that Atheism espouses)? Such teaching would also feel very empowering and 'grown up' to children.'

Yes, it's called Citizenship, and it does not work. I have taught citizenship to years 7,8 and 9, and done the 'if you have rights you have responsibilities bit', and they could not give a toss. Understanding of societal responsibility comes with age and maturity and that is exactly what children do not possess. They are for the most part egocentric, and cannot see beyond their own desires, or grasp the bigger picture. They have the idea of their rights on a personal level, but do not feel that they need be burdened with the responsibilities that come with those rights.

I have yet to see that logic has any morality - it is logical to kill off everyone the day before they draw their pensions, so reducing the burden on the health care system, and government finances, and freeing up large family homes for those who need them, but I don't see us a society doing that quite yet.

As for the atheist stance being taught; that is where I started most of my lessons from, and I always acknowledged that lots of my students would not have a religious belief.

SGB - I think it was Herod who ordered the massacre of the babies and last time I looked at the NT, he was Jewish, not Christian.

I also teach philosophy. There are lots of things (eg the unit I've just done about landmines, the stuff on prejudice against gay people, the unit on the main beliefs of Muslims) that just wouldn't fit in a Philosophy course. And I think those things are pretty important! Of course some RE teachers (or ministers at an assembly) will teach in what I think is the "wrong" way, eg saying Jesus was the son of God, rather than "Christians believe" he was, or even "I believe". So I would object to that style of teaching if it was happening in a DC's school. BUT haven't met a teacher like that in a long time, tf.

Iggi - the first two certainly could come under the heading of moral philosophy, and I would consider Islam a philosophy.

scary - that's only a logical position if you consider economic productivity the only measure of a person's worth. Altruism and co-operations are perfectly logical positions.

Let's not get hung up on Herod's religon, eh? Christianity is a Jewish heresy so it's really splitting hairs

ooo, [pedant warngin] Moral philosophy generally deals with the study of ethical theories eg utilitarianism - it's quite "detached" and wouldn't give young people the opportunity to gain confidence in expressing their opinions and learning from others. Though to be honest, what it's called doesn't matter too much. In my areas it's called RMPS for instance (I'll let you guess!)

not much of a pedant if I can't spell!

Iggi - yes, formally I suppose it's about systems of ethics - but I don't see why we can't be a bit more relaxed about it at a school level. It's not like mathematics at school has anything to do with mathematics at university, why should philosophy be any different

Well, I'd LIKE it to stand for Royal Mounted Psychic Squad.

I'll get new signs made up for my door tomorrow

Well,my degree is religion and Philosophy so i should be in charge of it all

I am not certain the idea of evidence works for religion.Either you believe, or you don't. No amount of evidencecan make someone stop beleiving if they think they feela supernatural existance, and vice versa (up to the level of God standing before them obv, at which point it ceases to be a faith and becomes an absolute).

I don't care what it'scalled if it gets kids talking and thinking about what works for them, in terms of faith or alck of, as wella s morality and their own truths.

lottie:>"Atheists take a cardboard cut-out version of Christianity, tar everyone with the same brush.. "

Not that anyone ever does the same thing to atheists, oh no! [grin

Rather Manky Prawn Sandwiches?

Routine Marching Promotes Silliness?

Random Men Prefer Sadism? (and women obv just didn't fir before SGB yells)

I think I'll stick with the original, thanks all the same!

"Atheists take a cardboard cut-out version of Christianity, tar everyone with the same brush.. "

It isn't that as such, it is that they argue with things from the Bible and don't seem to have read too well into it and are often wrong in what they think the Bible says about a certain issue.

oooj you really don't believe in having a soul? Your thinking, feelings/emotions and love is all just a reaction to what is around you? (Not that you think 'you' are anything as such. Just 'living' cells.) Really? Why? This is a genuine question because that seems totally bizarre to me.

what is a creationist sorry?

believes literally in the creation story in Genesis.

I have to admit, if Christianity was what most atheists seem to think it is, I wouldnt be a christian either.

YABU.

My daughter was told in primary school a couple of years ago that "we all believe in one god but we call him different names". I thin but im not sure that this is not accurate! I had the same issue as the OP and was contemplating going to see the head, luckily my DC were moving to a middle school at the end of the year as i found out that Head had links with a local school which teaches Creationism. Very different in middle school -teaching is definately around comparitive religion (with too much emphasis on Christianity for my liking , but hey ho school is very good in other ways re Citizenship etc)