To object to prayers and hymns at school?

[Maitri]

DD (5) goes to a non-denominational school. The reason we chose the school is because it is not a church school despite having some very loose links with a local church. We're very happy for the school to celebrate Easter, Christmas and Harvest with the children as we are in a predominantly Christian society. DS used to go to the same school and I was really happy that in addition to Christmas etc, the children would make little divali lamps and would learn about other faiths' celebrations (we live in a very culturally un-diverse area). In recent months, the school's links with the church seem to have strengthened as the vicar puts in an appearance every week and DD comes home with a new prayer or a new hymn every couple of days. She's constantly talking about Jesus and "how sad it was that he had to die for us"(!). We balance it with the old line of "Well, some people believe that Jesus was a real person and some people believe that he wasn't...". There has been no mention whatsoever of other faiths.

I wanted other MNers' views on this as I'm considering talking to the headteacher about her views. What do you think?

I think it might be hard for religious people to put themselves in the shoes of the atheists. The reason that many of us atheist can get a bit het up about religion is that decisions affecting our lives are being made by believers on the grounds of those beliefs, for example the Church of England is heavily represented in the House of Lords.

People should take phrases like 'sky daddy' in context...atheists might use such a phrase in the same way the religious (and atheists) might use jocular phrases about those who believe in space aliens abducting humans, ghosts, withcraft, astrology, etc.. And to the atheist there may be little to distinguish all the supernatural beliefs, so they can be viewed as holding equal value. it's not meant personally!

To be clear, I believe in absolute freedom of religon. I also don't think that any religon should be allowed to impinge on the lives of anyone. That leaves a very, very small area for religon to operate in.

Yes, Cho.

And for a lot of MNers, the area in which other people's religion most impinges on our lives, and on our children, is in education. The subject of this thread, and of course faith schools. Looking at the LEA map and realising that if you can't tick the church attendance box there is the 'choice' of precisely one school (unless your kid is brainy enough to get into out-of-area grammar or you can pay) - well, its going to cause a bit of indignation, isn't it?

Peachy, I'm not in the least bit threatened by religious beliefs, I'm just exasperated to despair that people hold such ridiculous beliefs AND expect other people to believe them too and to try and insidiously force them on little kids! If you want to believe in an invisible man who lives in the sky, knock yourself out! I just don't believe you have the right to tell other people that it's the truth or that they should agree (same with me - no-one else has to be an Atheist!).

And Scaryteacher, as regards the 'other religions' question then to put it bluntly, I think they're all as ridiculous as each other and should only be taught as comparative religion where it is made clear that what is being taught are people's beliefs and NOT facts or truths. I used Christianity as the example as it is Christianity in school that is worrying the OP. I have no hidden agenda against Christianity - I think they're all equally bonkers, antiquated and unnecessary, like I just said!

As ChoCho says, 'Sky Daddy' is not meant to specifically insult Christians, it's just meant to point out that to Atheists, believing in deities is just as silly as still believing in fairies, Santa Claus and so on as an adult. And as Oooja points out, it is bloody frustrating that there is a presumption of Christianity (or religion) and it is very annoying that we're all supposed to accept that this is the norm when the ideas it espouses are absolutely preposterous to us and often highly offensive. People can believe what they want, but they can't demand that everyone agrees or respects it or that it is an automatic right to bang on about their beliefs (and that goes the same for Atheists, although we're v. well used to that already ).

Why is it not more widely taught that many/most people are non-believers? Statistics show that the majority of the UK do not have, or belong to, any personal faith and the majority of the world do not follow a major religion (thank you China for that!). Why do schools not try and teach the very clear and easy-to-understand morality of logic, personal and societal responsibility and realising what is good and bad for one's self (that Atheism espouses)? Such teaching would also feel very empowering and 'grown up' to children.

OP - as a parent of teens my own experience is that they get some Christian teaching when they are small, but once they get a bit older the Christianity gets sidelined and they learn about Sikhism, Hinduism etc.

Then when they get to secondary school, RE seens to be mainly about the ethics of eg. abortion, divorce etc. When they were discussing their options for GCSE we chatted with the RE teacher and I found myself really wishing I could do the course - eg: 'We value free speech in this country, so should terrorists be allowed to say that bombing is a legitimate act of protest?'
I wanted mine to choose RE so they would always have something interesting to say at parties!

I asked mine the other day if they knew The Lord's Prayer, and they didn't - they must've learned it when they were young but had forgotten it. (A shame, IME, but that's just me. When I hear hymns now that I sang at primary school they take me straight back, in a comforting sort of way...)

It's a shame that these types of threads seem to get taken over by people with extreme views.

I am happy for DS to participate in prayers, hymns, etc, at school. It is giving him the inside track on a major world religion, he will still learn about other religions too, and at the end of the day he will make up his own mind what he believes. I trust him to be intelligent enough to be able to do this! I went to a church school and whilst it didn't make me a member of the church of England, having that background has helped me to find more common ground with people I work with, particularly those from Africa and Asia, regardless of what actual faith they were practising.

But if the OP feels uncomfortable with the policy at the school, she is right to talk to the head teacher.

Oh, all religions are equally bollocks, and none stand up to much examination in ethical terms, either once you start doing a bit of digging around in the mythologies: Christianity involves a lot of killing of newborn babies and Mohammed allegedly had a 9-year-old wife. There's a lot of cruelty to women and children and men being not just excused it but rewarded for it in all the myth systems - yet another reaason why it's depressing when intelligent women actually take this crap seriously.

Extreme views, Flock?

I don't think anyone here has expressed any extreme views...differences of opinion perhaps, but nothing out of the ordinary.

Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if I have excluded any frothing extremists!

If wanting a bit of proof, logic and common sense before I'll believe something makes me an extremist then so be it!

PS With more than a touch of irony: Amen to SolidGhoulBrass

It comes of not having a club to go to on a Sunday (or Friday or Saturday, depending on which version of The Book you subscribe to).

So atheists congregate on threads such as these.

What people believe in is, as many people have already said, entirely their affair.

But why my taxes are being spent, not only on espousing a theistic view of life, but on espousing a particular theism at the expense of others, really is beyond me.

I mean, I don't agree with my taxes being spent on nuclear weapons, but at least the MoD can convincingly argue that I derive a benefit from that, even if it's not a "benefit" I particularly want.

What is the benefit to me and my family of indoctrinating the nation's youth with a belief system which is not only entirely dependent on the recipient's goodwill (ie suspension of disbelief) but that, even as belief systems go, is a pretty shoddy, childish and inconsistent one?

When I say, "to me and my family" I actually mean "to anyone at all" (apart from believers themselves who could and should be self-funding).

Stats show most people don't ahve a faith Scorpette?

www.statistics.gov.uk/focuson/religion/this shows that 71% alone describe themselves as Christians

Erm SGB

Christiamnity involved a lot of killing of young babies, OK?

tis not somthing I am aware happens at the local CofW Church......

I don't care what anyone believes within reason (ie harm / brainwashing ) but like that samerespect shown back is all

"I don't care what anyone believes within reason (ie harm / brainwashing ) but like that samerespect shown back is all" - sadly, I rarely feel that my reasoned choice to be agnostic is given respect by the many christians i work with - most of them certainly won't spare my feelings by shutting up about their beliefs while in the workplace.

That'ssad MIFLaw, but it's something I would not support,I have written pieces on MN about religious diversity and ethicsthat emphasise tolerance to all,and the religious pewrsona I admoire most apart from JC) xid work with Atheists - bloke called Vivekanada

Of course, I know not everyone shares my views, but I can only try to change that. I certainly don't want to be held to account for the tactics of tohers, though. Especially when I really have given a lot to the cause of tolerance (the purpose of the degree was to teach RE, with the aim of increasing tolerance as where I lived had racism issues. Sadly life got in the way of doing the PGCE but life does that doesn't it?)

I would not dream of holding you to account for the actions of others. You sound like a very good and thoughtful person.

I would, however, like to see state and religion rigorously segregated so that I am not dependent on people being as nice or tolerant as you. If we took religion out of schools and excluded it from all state funding so that it truly was the choice of practitioners then my own choice not to be involved would also count for a lot more.

I fully intend to use my precious time to support my daughter's education when she is old enough. I'd really rather use it for maths and English than waste it undoing a misunderstanding that Christianity is anything other than a belief.

Well, as I said I do think everyone should have the option of a totally non-denom school, and I'd probably have chosen it for the boys: I might believe in Chrisianity but I am not a huge fan of the formalised Church.

I don't think some worship hurts- for example nextweek the boyswill attend the village remembrance service with school. But I dn't see why it should be daily, I'd e happy if it camev up fotr the usual 'events'- feast days, harvest, Chriostingle etc- but also brought in Diwali, Eid etc and the rest was kept clear for school days. IYSWIM.

Our school is a bit OTT though, creationism stuck its head up at one point (bleurgh). and I did get into trouble sending in a few Buddhist kids book

Religion does not exist ooo? You seem to have very extreme views and i think this may be bacause you have experience of some religion? It is often the case.

What you mean is that what we believe does not exist? That there is nothing else around you? Just a bunch of cells and molecules working together? That you and the rest od our society are nothing but cells that function correctly? That is bizarre to me. To me it is obvious that there is something else.

Kids learn about the different views at school - they have the right to hear and make their own decisions and although it is a shame in some peoples eyes that Christianity is the main religion discussed in some schools, it is the most popular faith in the world.

I like that kids are taught it a school. I hope it continues. I understand when parents feel upset but I dont understand why they should. Their child should be allowed to hear and make up their own minds with all the facts.

I dont think I worded that well but I hope you all understand what it was that I was trying to say.

Hmm.

The problem is that word "facts", isn't it?

I mean the facts of what different people believe.

Meltedchocolate - no,I don't have any particularly bad experiences of religon - other than boredom at Harvest Festivals and the like when I was small. I went to a Church School up about 7 and I don't remember it being especially awful. Apart from weddings, funerals and carol services I don't think I have had any direct involvement in religon for about 25 years.

I am, I guess, an antitheist and a materialist, so yes I do believe this is all there is. I don't think this is an especially extreme or unusual view.

If we were to accept your intuition that there is some other 'stuff' - there does not seem to be any reason that the various sets of ideas that call themselves religon, provide any insight into it at all, so I don't see that as any 'evidence' for religous ideas.

But when I say religon does not exist, I'm going further. The idea that they are not factually correct, I take as read. What I am saying is that there is no need for a seperate philosophical, political or legal 'thing' called religon. Just because a set of ideas has the label 'Religon', it should not be treated differently to one labelled 'Economic Theories' or 'Favourite Colours'. There are better tools for looking at how groups behave that Religon.

I don't think this is 'extreme' either.

LondonLottie - I agree that Dawkins is charmless, and I wouldn't want anyone to think that I was a 'follower' of, well, anyone really. Unfortunatly, he has the highest public profile and he's right.