To object to prayers and hymns at school?

[Maitri]

DD (5) goes to a non-denominational school. The reason we chose the school is because it is not a church school despite having some very loose links with a local church. We're very happy for the school to celebrate Easter, Christmas and Harvest with the children as we are in a predominantly Christian society. DS used to go to the same school and I was really happy that in addition to Christmas etc, the children would make little divali lamps and would learn about other faiths' celebrations (we live in a very culturally un-diverse area). In recent months, the school's links with the church seem to have strengthened as the vicar puts in an appearance every week and DD comes home with a new prayer or a new hymn every couple of days. She's constantly talking about Jesus and "how sad it was that he had to die for us"(!). We balance it with the old line of "Well, some people believe that Jesus was a real person and some people believe that he wasn't...". There has been no mention whatsoever of other faiths.

I wanted other MNers' views on this as I'm considering talking to the headteacher about her views. What do you think?

Where have all the moderate liberal people gone?

I think yanbu to have a problem with the hymns & the stuff dd is coming home saying about jesus. I would not like it either as we are Muslim & I don't think a non church school should be teaching christianity to the pupils in that way, but maybe ask for her to be excused from assemblies

Just a quick google seems to show that some people don't believe in the existence of a historical Jesus Christ.

As in thislink.
I've not read all of it just the beginning.

You know

the law IIRC says broadly christian act, yes?

Now my good old Mum is the elast religious person in existence, she would get on famously with SGB and UQD. But even she willtell people that JC was a great Philospher of his time- just not a religious being.

A broadly Christian act of worship is very wide; it copuled easilt regualrly encompass discussion on the nature of ones neighbour, love, forgiveness: it does opresent a wealth ofdemonstrably boradly-Christian topics that benefit all children with their discussion, regardless of religion (or lack of)

Just out of interest Firawia, what's the reasoning behind why you think a non church school shouldn't be teaching christianity to their children?

Surely the OP withdrawing her children from the assemblies would isolate and exclude them from the rest of the school. But then if she talks to the head about it, why should everybody who is OK with the hymns and prayers for their children have the school they're happy with changed just because the OP doesn't like it?

Juuule

Some bits on there- I think the fact that grabs me most is the evidence from sources that clearly could be better without having had him about- The Romans, Jews etc.

It is a generallya ccepted fact amongst scholars that JC existed but the JC that is accepted is not necessarily the Son of God, but a wandering charismatic ptreacher- and in his time,those were ten a penny.

Well, it's the school that has changed, not the OP. So it's entirely valid for her to ask questions about this change.

Ah,at my school the only kids let out were Plymoputh Brethren,and the only book they read was the Bible.

We grew up near one of their Churches, soprobably three or four in every year.

Is this a case of not practice but teach? I don't get it. If you don't like what the school upholds, then you don't have to keep the children there. Take them to a non faith school. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the children or other families shouldn't have the opportunity to have hymns etc.

Yup, if the 'ethos' of the school has changed it is perfectly reasonable to question it.

Some of the posters don't seem to have read the OP properly. The OP didn't object to how it used to be - like the vast majority of non-faith schools conforming to the law. But now it seems her DC is being taught matters of faith as fact.

Its (probably) factual that someone approximating to Jesus of Nazareth existed. Its very much a matter of faith that he was as represented in the Bible, especially the sort of thing quoted in the OP "how sad it was that he had to die for us"

Time2Hibernate, of course you don't get it if you dont' read the question:

"The reason we chose the school is because it is not a church school "

Hope that clarifies

I think it is worth talking to the head teacher to find out why the situation has changed.

FWIW, I don't have a problem with children being taught about christianity, even in a non church school when so many of the values and the culture of the UK have been influenced by it.

I too would be concerned.
I don't beleive in god/jesus/etc in any way shape or form and we have chosen a non faith school for our children because of this.
I have no objection in my children learning about different faiths as long as it covers all faiths in the same detail, as I believe my children should have an understanding of other peoples beliefs.
Then when they are older if they chose to have a faith they have knowledge of them all.
But I would not be happy if this was happening to my child in a non faith school.
The fact that the op is a re teacher has nothing to do with her concerns as a parent about her childs education.

'I wanted other MNers' views on this as I'm considering talking to the headteacher about her views. What do you think? '

Before you do this you ought to read the various education acts. The Head has no choice! This subject comes up on average every 4 weeks on mumsnet, sometimes slightly longer. There is no such thing as a secular school in England. Non denominational means not affiliated to a particular church but, by law, the Head has to provide a daily act of worship which has to be broadly Christian. It is all laid down see see here. Even if the Head has mainly muslim DCs they still can't just change it they have to apply and meet certain criteria.
If you do a search for this lots of threads will come up. I think that schools should make it clear-they assume that parents understand it. If you went to a state school yourself you wil have had assemblies with hymns and prayers-nothing has changed.

generalunrest - you're quite right - I obviously need glasses!

Maitri, by all means talk to your headmistress - after all you would if it were any other issue, but don't get too wound up by it. From what you've said it doesn't sound like they're trying to turn them into Christian extremeists or anything like that, but more are just trying to give them a greater knowledge of the faith that this country is built on - nothing wrong with that!

YANBU. I am aware of the education act that dictates that schools have to provide an act of worship but I don't agree with the law.

Learning about a variety of religions is one thing but I wouldn't be at all happy about my hypothetical child being preached to or being told to pray.

Pisces, the 'broadly Christian collective act of worship' is one thing. What the OP describes is a mutation from what that normally entails in a non-faith school into something more like what you might expect from a faith school. There's no statute saying you have to have the vicar in every week or send home prayers and hymns.

Josephus, a Roman writer, wrote about Jesus.

OP, I know you don't have to be religious to be an RE teacher, but are you not part of any religious church? If you're not, how does that square with you teaching children about faith and religion?

There is actually very little difference between a faith school and a non faith school. I go into lots of both.
I would say that the main difference is that faith schools go to church occasionally. Non denominational ones are likely to say 'Christians believe' and 'if you want to make this your prayer, say amen' (too subtle for 5yr olds IMO).
Vicars, ministers etc go into non denominational schools. They learn hymns, weekly hymn practice, and prayers in both.

There is no point in speaking to the Head, unless you are very clear about what is required by law.

Jesus is typical of charismatic types who used to wander around preaching in the old days in mediterranean cultures. I dont get the agenda to try and prove that he didnt exist.

OP, yabu. your child will explore many ideas before they make their mind up. And a hymn and a prayer is not going to damage her. She may even like them.