To object to prayers and hymns at school?

[Maitri]

DD (5) goes to a non-denominational school. The reason we chose the school is because it is not a church school despite having some very loose links with a local church. We're very happy for the school to celebrate Easter, Christmas and Harvest with the children as we are in a predominantly Christian society. DS used to go to the same school and I was really happy that in addition to Christmas etc, the children would make little divali lamps and would learn about other faiths' celebrations (we live in a very culturally un-diverse area). In recent months, the school's links with the church seem to have strengthened as the vicar puts in an appearance every week and DD comes home with a new prayer or a new hymn every couple of days. She's constantly talking about Jesus and "how sad it was that he had to die for us"(!). We balance it with the old line of "Well, some people believe that Jesus was a real person and some people believe that he wasn't...". There has been no mention whatsoever of other faiths.

I wanted other MNers' views on this as I'm considering talking to the headteacher about her views. What do you think?

Richard Dawkins thinks that in all probability Jesus the man did exist; there is enough documentary evidence for him.
Clearly he cannot be 100% definite on the matter, but he thinks it is more likely than not.
Obviously he doesn't believe he was the son of God.

What is the importance of whether Jesus was a real, historical person or not?

Its one of the necessary preconditions to any of the rest of Christianity being true.

But (in case its not obvious) it is very far from being a sufficient condition.

ChoChoi I tend ytowards agreement; I am OK with faith schools but only if there is a Non-denom choice available

many villages like ours do not ahve this option,and I don't think that is on tbh

I don't believe anything will change as many stateschools are part funded by religion and momney is a big motivator.

I do think RE, proper goodcomparative understanding- building RE, is important forall children though. There's a big difference between indoctrinatioon in one, and nowledge of many.

"What is the importance of whether Jesus was a real, historical person or not?"

oojimaflip, because the OP was saying that she had said to her child that some people believe that Jesus was a real person and some don't. Then she claimed to be an RE teacher. Posters like myself were/are querying the claim to being an RE teacher on this basis that - I thought! - it is generally accepted even among people who do not think Jesus was the son of God/God incarnate that he did actually exist.

Other posters have come on to say that no, there is no proof of Jesus's existence, therefore you could expect an RE teacher to say that.

So it has also become a debate over whether or not it is academically accepted that Jesus did historically exist.

Richard Dawkins is a wimpy fence-sitter IMO No, seriously.

PS ChoChoSan has summed it all up perfectly. I have no probs with parents wanting their kids to follow in their personal religious tradition (well, I do, as I think it's brainwashing, but that's a whole other thread!), but it should be a private choice within the family and not something automatically foisted on all children. Surely our society has moved on from the presumption that everyone is, or should be, religious/Christian?! As ChoCho points out, training small kids to blindly believe anything they're told is at odds with the critical thinking required for academic ability and success and for adult life in general.

There is something in the papers at least weekly about how our schoolchildren are being failed - the most obese in Europe, the most depressed in Europe, the most sexualised in Europe, stress over SATs and so on. Surely the time spent on religious claptrap in schools could be better spent in much more worthwhile, positive and proactive ways? Even if it was only something like an extra half hour of sport a week, the results would be great. We should be thinking about making lives as good as possible in the here and now, not confusing kids about trying to please an imaginary figure who might or might not be nice to you after death!

I think it is nice your daughter is learning about Christ as a Christian and i think you should let her learn. She will make her own mind up in the end.

'not confusing kids about trying to please an imaginary figure who might or might not be nice to you after death!'

That is NOT what RE is about Scorpette - it's about what some people believe and how they practice their religion. Religious literacy is important. I don't ask my students to have a religious belief, I don't have one myself (I'm a good godfearing agnostic), but they DO need to know how to avoid offending people and to protect themselves against charges of religious hatred. They also need to know (imo) what the laws in society are based on.

I was teaching Islam as a unit on 09/11 - that was interesting and gave the chance to puncture some stereotypes.

this is coming across as hypocritical. I'm not religious but do talk to DS about Noah's Ark and not just about the religious aspect of it but also the moral of the story. He loves the story and I won't be offended if he comes home from school talking about Jesus, that's his choice. Better than discussing LSD and cannabis.

Did you not know that Jesus was a real human being???? OP where have you been all this time??

But as Christianity is not true, then is doesn't matter if Jesus was a historical figure or not.
Any true believer is not going to change their mind regardless of the evidence.
It's not an evidence based issue.

I don't think religous literacy is necessary. I don't accept that religon exists as a thing apart from the cultural practices of a particular group. Cultural sensitivity is necessary so that we are able to apply the most important social tool, politeness.

If only this country would segregate religion and state we could all start living like grown-ups.

The problem is Ooojimaflip, that lots of people don't agree with you. You may not think that religion exists as a thing apart, but for many people it does, and we have to try to equip the students to deal with that. You can be as polite as you like, but you may still end up offending someone's beliefs.

It also seems to me like it is Christian bashing to a certain extent on here. I asked earlier on the thread if we were also going to question the existence of the Buddha and Muhammed as there was no proof that they existed either - but no responses to that one I note. You say Christianity isn't true - you therefore believe that Islam / Judaism/ Hinduism/Sikhism and Buddhism are not true either?

The OP says she lives in a culturally un-diverse area - move then!

I don't believe in superstition, and I don't approve of the promotion of superstition as a normal and acceptable part of civil society. I don't believe that certain sets of superstitions should be priveleged over others in legal or social terms, just because they happen to be connected with large pressure groups.

And I agree that pupils should be taught about different groups cultural practices - as you say you don't want to cause offence accidentally.

Well religion does exist, religion is the belief system so of course it exists.now whether you think it actually exists as in God /eity /energy etc is quite diferent

I think it matters;how isa child going to understand a goodeprcentage of world events without some knowledge of it? RE at its best prmots culturalawareness, tolerance and consideration of ones own personal outlook.

Not causing offence is great, really impotrtant even given the ,multiculturaland maultinationallevel of business, society etc- but its also far more. Especially in some ways for kids like mine whoa re growing up in a place where the cultralmix is stillvery basic. One day a great many of those kidsmight leave the village and actually meet the realworld.

In the case of Christianity and Islam, whether Jesus or Muhammed existed is vital to their internal logic. But neither matters greatly if you don't believe God exists - its on that basis that I believe all theistic religions (including Hinduism etc) to be untrue.

In the case of the Buddha, it actually doesn't matter whether some particular individual existed or not. Its not a faith-based religion with a sacred being at its centre. The teachings don't stand or fall by who said or wrote them. Whether they are 'true' or not I don't know as I've not had time to try them ('try' in both the sense of 'attempt' and 'judge' - you're actually meant to do that I think)

@Scaryteacher - I wholeheartedly agree that children should be taught comparative religion and learn about different cultures and what different people believe BUT I do not agree with children being told religious stories as though they are facts or 'the truth'. Or that religion is necessary in one's life. The OP was not complaining about the teaching of comparative religion in a cultural affairs-style setting, but about her child being taught to parrot Christian 'facts' when the school claims to not be a religious school.

Also about offending people - no-one worries about offending Atheists, though, do they? People acting like we're weird for not believing in a giant invisible Sky Daddy is okay, is it, when we're the logical ones and aren't trying to peddle nonsensical and often dangerous ideas?!

Part of life is about having to deal with being offended now and then and also how to make amends when you accidentally offend others (or how to avoid doing so in the first place) - teaching interpersonal skills to children would be far better than teaching them Bible stories.

All the morals and good ideas many people use the Bible to teach about could be much better taught in non-religious ways, without the confusion and supernatural nonsense inherent in the stories. In fact, the stories in the Bible are often so bizarre and impossible that it actively stops young children understanding what the message is!

I'm with Ooojimaflip on this one

What is a belief system? Just some stuff people believe. The terms religon is discussed in are just to broad - there are very few instances in which discussing 'islam' as opposed to the specific behaviours of say, Saudi Muslims and Turkish Muslims. In fact, within a single congregation, people's behavoiur differs - look at Roman Catholics and contraception.
For looking at the broad sweep of history and the effects of significant political entities o n it, the power blocks described as religon are useful. But that is all religon is - political power blocks.

I wouldn't ever say someone is weird- though tbh I can't see why that would be less offesive than comments like giant sky daddy would be too many.

I beloeive in complete freedom of faith insofar as it doesn't negatively affect anyone else, but neither would I palce my faith above anyone elses in estimation- which I think you do, judging from your posts.

I don't understand,,Scorpette, why you are so threatened by other peoples life choices?
I don'tr care if you are Atheist (I wasmyself once) but why do you care if I beleive in a faith?

An organsied beleife system is a shared set of beliefs that is attributable to a number i of people,as it often forms the basis for their lives it is relevant.

Culture is different- my friend on MN is Muslim but there is litle else different about how we live our lives, apart from the bare essentials of expression of faith- we are part of the same culture.

Likewise cultures differe within religion- consider Islam in somewhere like Somlia compared to average non-ectremist bristish Muslims.

Very tactful and an interesting use of language to answer the question. You are happy to say that Christianity is untrue, but not to make the same claim about the other religions or just one in particular? Why is that?

I'm still pondering the moral of Noah's Ark and why its considered a nice tale for small children. God doesn't like the way the people he made are turning out so he drowns most of them and most of the innocent animals too.

This goes to the root of one of the main problems with primary school religion. You always get the nice bits - 'God saves boatful of animals and makes a pretty rainbow' and ignores the horrific backstory, and that no divine intervention is needed to diffract light through raindrops.

If your faith does not effect me then obviously I don't care. But if you make irrational decisions based on that faith it does effect me. And that irrationality spreads throughout wider society. And if I am expected to show 'respect' to what ever daft views you happen to try to dignify by labeling them as religon, then that also effects me.
(That is 'you' in a generic sense as opposed to a particular poster)