To object to prayers and hymns at school?

[Maitri]

DD (5) goes to a non-denominational school. The reason we chose the school is because it is not a church school despite having some very loose links with a local church. We're very happy for the school to celebrate Easter, Christmas and Harvest with the children as we are in a predominantly Christian society. DS used to go to the same school and I was really happy that in addition to Christmas etc, the children would make little divali lamps and would learn about other faiths' celebrations (we live in a very culturally un-diverse area). In recent months, the school's links with the church seem to have strengthened as the vicar puts in an appearance every week and DD comes home with a new prayer or a new hymn every couple of days. She's constantly talking about Jesus and "how sad it was that he had to die for us"(!). We balance it with the old line of "Well, some people believe that Jesus was a real person and some people believe that he wasn't...". There has been no mention whatsoever of other faiths.

I wanted other MNers' views on this as I'm considering talking to the headteacher about her views. What do you think?

Being familiar with the law on this before seeing the head is a good thing, but I think it is fair nonetheless to ask the head what has changed.

where did i put my fone - i think because if they don't teach it then it makes those schools suitable for all the non christian people who go to that school, whether they are from different religions or even athiest families or whatever else. there are loads of christian state schools around, so its not like that wouldn't be available for those who want it. the non church ones could just do assemblies in a general way teaching about morals and good behaviour rather than if they are actually teaching them "jesus has died for your sins" which i find a bit out of order as it may confuse the child if that's not what they believe.
i actually thought that non church schools were a bit more secular and wouldn't be teaching that, so was surprised to see in this thread that it's done that way (my kids not at school age yet so not experienced)

YANBU I really don't understand why people think you have to be of a different faith in order to object to Christianity being preached at your children. An entirely different thing from being taught about it. Or indeed why you have to be a person of faith in order to teach children about different faiths, surely it's better to be unbiased since you are teaching about multiple faiths and not preaching one?

I would love to send my child to a secular school but there aren't any so saying you can always send your child elsewhere is just not true.

I'm perfectly happy for my child to learn about Christianity, and take part in the festivals, as we are at least culturally Christian. I'm happy for them to learn about, and take part in celebrating the festivals of, other faiths too as I think it is important in this world to understand where other people are coming from.

I'm sorry though, I'm not buying into the idea that it's ok for a child to be taught to be a Christian because it's a "nice thing" because I don't happen to agree that it's a "nice thing". It's perfectly possible to teach children to be kind to other people without telling them they'll go to Hell if they aren't.

Firawla, it's perhaps because I believe that schools should teach, and try to prepare children for a lot of the things they'd encounter in the adult world.

Like it or not, religion and faith are part of that, and like Dollie says, teaching them about christianity is teaching them about the faith their country was built on.

I'm not sure I like the sanitisation of everything they teach at school into some kind of bland, dumbed down version of scientific fact, spirituality does exist, just because it can't be quantified or measured that's no reason why they can't be taught about it and make up their own minds.

But then are you just talking about not wanting christianity to be taught in non faith schools? It's the only faith you mention.

what doobry said (and said it so much better than I could have done).

I think it's a bit strong to say that the only place you can find a secular school is in China. How about Holland? They have primary school for different religions AND a secular option.

OP YANBU at all: you sent your kids to a secular school and suddenly they've got some overeager crap peddler on the premises moving the goalposts. I think it is worth objecting, politely, and reminding the head that the school contains many pupils whose families are not Christians so there should be a variety of viewpoints explained to the DC.
I do not understand why so many people are so keen to have this crap peddled at other people's kids. If you are daft enough to believe in gods, there are plenty of places you can get your superstitious fix without having to inflict it on people who have better things to do with their time.
Oh, and what a magnificently witless comment from wheredidiputmyphone: 'spirituality does exist, just because it can't be quantified or measured that's no reason why they can't be taught about it and make up their own minds'. Yes dearie, keep your mind niiiiiiice and open, and who knows, maybe one day your brain will fall back in.

YABU because you have the right to withdraw her from worship and RE but you are not exercising it.

fone, no-one here is saying they don't want Christianity (and other religions) taught about. I for one definitely do. Its part of our history, and our current cultural context.

Teaching about spirituality, customs etc is fine.

Its when the line is crossed saying (or at least strongly implying) that one particular faith is actually true that a non-faith state school has really gone too far.

Theres nothing bland and dumbed down about scientific fact - if thats whats being taught thats wrong but two wrongs dont make a right

Excluding kids from part of the normal life of the school is not an acceptable solution. It is presented as one but it just isn't.

Why ?

Ouch solid, your patronising post has mortally wounded me

Why should the hostility and anger people like yourselves feel towards religion be able to dictate how a school is run? Is that a good basis for teaching children how to live their lives?

It isn't accepted fact that Jesus existed. There is not and can not be conclusive proof that this one specific figure lived and died, especially so long ago. I for one do not believe he existed and instead believe that the Bible is a collection of either folk tales and morality tales from the time that are now irrelevant (like rape victims being stoned), and which was written and composed at a far later date than that which we associate it with and that Jesus is either a metaphorical central character or a character whose deeds and thoughts are either fictional (and which served particular political agendas at whatever time it was being written and rewritten) or are at best an amalgamation of many things that popular self-proclaimed prophets (ie loons) and their ilk were saying at the time 'he' was supposed to exist.

Just because a book says someone existed does not make it a fact. I also do not accept that hobbits used to exist. To Atheists and sceptics, etc., the teaching of religion as fact is as stupid and offensive as teaching that Lord of The Rings is factual history. So the poster is not AIBU. The thought that children are being made to think an invisible man lives in the sky and is watching and controlling them and everyone else is not good. Not to mention ludicrous. It should not be automatic that some level of religion is taught; just the very fact that it is unconsciously suggests the idea that religion is truth and necessary for life, when it clearly is neither.

And you don't need to be religious or accept Jesus as real to be a RE teacher or work in the field of religion; indeed, my Dad's close friend is a vicar and as a Christian, does not believe Jesus technically existed and is, instead, a metaphor and a wonderful example of how one should live one's life. According to him, this isn't as rare as you might think amongst members of the clergy who have studied theology extensively.

SGP what a needlessly unpleasant post.Would you say the same about any religion?I dont see why the word 'crap' needed to be there.Your comments were offensive.
As far as op goes why not just have your child withdrawn from RE and religious assemblies.You are fortunate indeed if your only complaint about a school is that the vicar calls in and the pupils learn hymns and prayers.

@wheredidiputmyfone - the 'anger and hostility' as you put it, stems from not thinking that children should be brainwashed by ideas that are at best laughably preposterous and at worst, set you up for a lifetime of confusion, self-hatred and bigotry.

No-one needs religion to be moral, happy and lead a good life, respecting nature and those around you. Fact. In fact, relying on a magical father figure to tell you how to be and do those things actively discourages children (and adults) from discovering and understanding one's own innate morality, caring and goodness. That sounds like the sort of thing that should cause anger and alarm to me!

fone - i don't mind my kids being taught about all the religions, to know that these are the religions that exist and these people believe this or that, and do this or that, and however much info the school wants to give that is all fine with me but if the assembly is preaching christianity and focuses only on christianity i wouldn't be happy with it as i don't find that appropriate for my non christian children. there is quite a difference between assemblies like that, and re lessons where they teach everything and its done more from an outside perspective. i just don't want them to be taught things that we don't believe in islam. its fine to say christians believe jesus died for their sins on a cross, but if its just stated as a fact it will be confusing for them if they come home and parents have to tell them no what your teacher told you isn't true.

My DD would hate to be withdrawn from assembly - especially when its class assembly. Exclusion from part of what everyone else is doing based on my beliefs would be rather cruel.

So we put up with it but that doesn't mean we have to like it, and if the subject comes up then we'll feel free to express our displeasure.

I feel the same way as the OP, and have also had to balance my DD's (she's 5 too) comments about how god created all the people and lives in the sky (again from an apparently non-denominational school) with 'well, some people think that'. But if she's getting that from her teacher (who is supposed to be telling the truth) it is a bit tricky, I don't want to be seen in DD's eyes to be undermining the teacher, but I can't let the comments pass as total truth.

I believe he did exist, and there is sufficient evidence from Tacitus and Josephus for me. The son of God question is a whole other ball game.

If we are querying the existence of Christ, then presumably the same goes for Siddartha Gotama and Muhammed? It is interesting however that both Hinduism and Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet.

I think (well I am an RE teacher) that some level of religious literacy is necessary; however, that is not the same thing as religious belief. I do not teach that religion is truth, but that for some people it is extremely important, and that the students had better learn some of the basics about each religion so that they are not unwittingly hauled up on an inciting religious hatred charge.

I also do not think that imaginary numbers are necessary for life, but they get taught..... and I can't get my head around them. We all have our blind spots with certain subjects.

'OP YANBU at all: you sent your kids to a secular school'

This is the problem-people don't understand, there are NO secular schools in England! There won't be until church and state are separate.
I don't understand why people get upset about it. It means that you can have lots of interesting discussions with your DC-much healthier than saying 'there is no God because Mummy says so'! End of.

I don't think many scholars of history doubt the existane of JC as a man ,whether he is the sone of god is where opinion is divided

Scorpette, there is evidence that Jesus existed in other writings apart form the Bible.

OP, yanbu.

If you have any concerns, please do go speak to the HeadTeacher about them and ignore the fundies screeching on this thread.

All I can say is I am glad my children are not at your school if you are the RE teacher

I should just make sure that you have read the 1998 education act first (I may mean the 1988 education act). There is really no point unless you know the law.

Firawla, the established religion of the UK is Christianity, and the law mandates that any collective worship is broadly Christian in nature. In theory therefore every state school will be more focused on Christianity than anything else.

'i just don't want them to be taught things that we don't believe in islam.'

The act of collective worship isn't teaching imo - at secondary level, religion is hardly mentioned in assemblies, and in primary, you may have to withdraw your dcs. RE may not be taught objectively, depending upon the religious affiliation of the RE teacher. They will also pick things up in life that are contrary to Islamic beliefs; is it not best they know from an early age that there are differences between what they believe and practice and what others believe, or not, and practice?