To think my sister is selfish for choosing not to breast feed?

[IHateWinter]

She hasn't even had her baby yet but has already decided that she doesn't want to try it and if she does she'll only do it for a month at most.

I've told her that breast milk is healthier and gives the baby antibodies etc, but she won't listen to me. I gave her a baby book that explains why breast is best but she won't read that either.

What else can I say? I worry about my future neice. I understand that she many not want to carry on doing it for a long time, but I really do feel that if you have a baby you have the responsibility to try and give it the best start in life. I really feel she is more concerned about what her breasts will look like than her babies needs.

I'm suprised by how strongly I feel. I find myself avoiding her in case I end up saying something upsetting. Am I being unreasonable?

Oh, and before anyone says, I AM NOT A TROLL I am a regular poster who has name changed.

LeQueen, you say "30 years ago women rarely BF and not a single one was made to feel guilty or selfish about it. " This is so NOT true!

I hesitate to quote research, but something like 65 per cent of women initiated breastfeeding (in the 1980 UK survey). Hardly rare... Contemporary research into women's experiences showed that people did feel sad if they did not breastfeed or if they did not breastfeed for long. There is no evidence at all that feelings like this are any different now - I have spoken to many women (in my role as a breastfeeding counsellor) who recall their feelings from decades ago, and who are still upset - I don't know if people 'made' them feel guilty, and that's a whole other discussion.

No one should feel criticised for her feeding choices because no one can see inside people's heads and see the impetus for these choices - I agree with you there.

So I am responding just to correct the stuff about 30 years ago!

A suggestion - if you want a nice non-argumentative thread then why not start a 'we think people should bf because' - there's even a section for it. You can quote all the research you like, reference the papers too long to digest in one go and bookmark it for the attention of any prospective parent. One of your chief fears seems to be that prospective parents simply aren't getting enough of the right information. Now I tend to disagree with that because just about everything I heard in ante-natal classes and so forth was pro-bfing (and remember, I followed the message), but if that's the way you feel then start something to provide the information. By joining in a thread in this section you are (a) presenting all that well read stuff to people who have almost certainly already had babies and made up their minds how to feed them and (b) joining in a section where it is natural for people to have widely opposing views and even be a bit blunt. And then you get upset when someone argues back. So why not put that important information out somewhere where it's doing some use.

Oh - but if someone starts a thread, again not on AIBU, saying 'I tried bfing and found it had the following slightly adverse effects' please don't jump in en masse to tell them that no it can't possibly have and their views need adjusting - because they might, just might, think that you are calling them (a) stupid to think it had those effects or (b) a liar to say it had those effects - and no, quoting research papers as back up ('you can't possibly have suffered that effect because the Society of Plastic Surgeons says you can't') won't dispel those thoughts.

Who are you talking to, bellissima? Must be me - though hardly anything you say applies to me. Must be me, because I quoted the research (boy - you really dislike research, doncha?!) on the cosmetic surgery....NOT to say (as I made clear) 'you could not have experienced this', but to point out that one person's experience/feelings cannot be generalised out to apply to others and that it is not 'logical' to expect saggy breasts after bf.

Having said that, how can people who breastfed and have saggy breasts say 'it wasn't the pregnancy, it was the breastfeeding'....'cos they had to be pregnant first! How can they say 'my breasts sagging was caused by my bf, not my pregnancy'.

Only proper studies which look at many women who did bf and many who didn't bf to compare can draw any generalisable conclusion.

Yes, there was an upswing in breastfeeding in the late 70s. It's certainly the case that whole families and peer groups did not breastfeed.

It is the same now, but the no. of breastfeeding women has increased.

Thanks Tiktok - no I haven't mentioned my personal experience.
Bellissima - You say people have "too much time on their hands", yet you are the one who seems to have a real issue with this. Breastfeeding is important, no it's not the be all and end all, of course - no-one has said it is. Of course not every baby should be breastfed at all costs. But you seem to want things swept under the carpet. Of course it may well not make any difference but mothers need information to make their own choices. There has been debate on the validity of research which is interesting, but you could tell anyone they have too much time on their hands if they are discussing anything with your logic - from global warming to Strictly Come Dancing!

I think your assertion that people who care about these things "need to get out more" is quite rude. Many women have benefitted from people like Tiktok who devote time and effort to halping them. Not to mention the fact that many women who breastfeed can feel like social pariahs or worry that they can't do it in public. It is an important issue and not just for the health reasons, it goes much deeper than that.

By the way - curiosity killed - lol at your "the sky can be red" comment!

tik-tok - it's up to you whether you like research or not. I read plenty of research in an entirely different area. It's part of my job. I don't quote it at length on MN though because I can't be bothered and you'd all fall over with boredom. But one of the points I'm making is that it's probably a bit of a waste of time to quote it here. The majority of us aren't prospective parents. So what is the point? Is it that in the end we will say oh gosh after reading 20 research papers I now see your point and accept your arguments totally? Well in fact much of the pro-bf stuff put forward here has been a little bit contradictory (no, I'm not directing this at you tik-tok because you have referenced a paper which I agree is well balanced and unbiased. But I have certainly read stuff on here which strays into areas deemed controversial by Prof Kramer. Now such discrepancies are hardly likely to make me think oh they are all completely right.

In fact when I had my first child some of the pro-Bf literature was very definitely talking about allergies and asthma. As we had the former in the family this was obviously an attractive message. Now I could be extremely disillusioned, bitter and twisted even, having bf and having found that it didn't prevent DD1 from getting asthma and that now even the reputable scientists no longer made any such claims. In that sense bombarding people with research can make them switch off. In fact I don't feel bitter because I still agree with Prof Kramer and other balanced souls that it has beneficial effects. Equally I know like him that there are limits. And that exaggerating any beneficial effects is not doing anyone a service - you are only likely to cause disillusionment.

As to the adverse effects - my second child had a marked preference for one boob and it left me lop-sided. Absolute fact. Wasn't a feature beforehand and wasn't pregnancy (which lets face it affects both norks equally). I'm not stupid to notice it and I'm not a liar to mention it. Of course pregnancy affects your boobs. It makes em bigger then smaller. Bfing makes em fuller and then smaller over the course of hours. Of course it also affects em. As I said before, probably more noticeable for those of a small-norked persuasion in the first place. My SIL who did extended bfing hath remains of norks more usually seen on the plains of Africa where they also bf for years (unless disreputable coys get there first) - but I have remarked before that she is a highly extreme case.

Bellissima - "what is the point?"

What is the point of discussing anything?

Zooropa - wasn't me who gently suggested that you have too much time on your hands - I was quoting another poster. Maybe you need to read a bit more carefully.

leaving the debacle about research etc aside .this is essentially about respecting a divergent opinion and maintaining a relationship between sisters.human nature is that we act upon our own volition,raely that of others.

well meaning suggestions/intentions may be the projection of ones own personal preferences onto someone else.thus just because feeding issue is imperative and pressing for the op doesnt mean it necesarily is for her sister

in real life we can hold differing opinions and incongruencies and still maintain a relationship.maybe this is one such case

But you quoted them because you agreed with them. You also said "need to get some new interests", and "clearly spend far more of their time engrossed with bfing than with other highly important child health issues?" which are comments with the same implication.

Yep - I do agree with her. Honest response. Can do no other. Now go after her too if you like.

I'm not "going after" anyone, Bellissima. I'm just pointing out that you are being quite rude, yet you're accusing others of "hectoring"

its your sisters baby, and she has to decide.

LeQueen - you are right, these women are not excellent ambassadors of breastfeeding. But have you not also known people sneer at breastfeeders? Make comments because they are feeding in public, or because they are breastfeeding a toddler, and that's "disgusting" or "bitty"? If you haven't, I can tell you they do exist. There are breastfeeders and formula feeders, and there are numpties. Please don't assume the numpty factor has anything to do with feeding precerences!

preferences

Zooropa - when I accuse anyone of being a moral illiterate then I shall certainly agree I'm being rude. Indeed when I say that someone is 'bitchily sneering' or other comments made at the OP then feel free to call me rude. But there are plenty of others on this thread who have been far ruder and judgmental than me. There again it is an AIBU thread.

this has descended into a she said/i said melee

completely missing the point that mums have individual choice
autonomy
and can decide mode of feeding

scottishmummy. you are right. on both points. I'll belt up.

"But I think that very often people agressively promote BF-ding for all the wrong reasons. It's far more to do with them feeling morally superior as a person and a parent, than it is to do with genuine concern for a baby's nutrition."

How do you know?

"I have 3 friends who BF for more than 6 months. All did it very discretely, they never agressively promoted themselves or what they were doing, they never assumed any kind of smugness for BF-ding in anyway".

"They just did it, and got on with doing it".

All the women I know 'just get on with it' when they're bf their baby. What, do you know some other women who clap their hands and call for an audience before they start breastfeeding or somethig. Or women who.... gasp... are 'indiscreet' in the way they breastfeed?

"On the other hand I have known BF-ding women openly harrangue other Mums who FF. I've known them sneer and judge them and agressively verbally attack them for FF."

Oh go on, give us some details. Then we can post back and forth with examples of bottlefeeding mums making sniffy comments about breastfeeders. Personally I've been a mum for 10 years, and have friends who have both breast and ff. I have never heard anyone say anything overtly nasty to a breastfeeding or ff mum. Maybe I don't go to the right places, or maybe my friends are nicer than yours!

" But, being a successful BF-ding Mum is their Golden Ticket, and it's their Get Out Of Jail Card and exonerates them from ever having to do anything else again to be a good parent"

TBH this sounds a bit bonkers. I know loads of people involved in bf promotion and none of them think this way. Why on earth would you want to make up stuff like this? Do you have a lot of personal baggage about breastfeeding?

"The other is when the militant BF-der ostentatiously whips out her boobs at every opportunity, all the while determindly trying to catch the eye of innocent bystanders, so she can then accuse them of staring at her, and harrassing her for BF-ding."

Oh the urban myths! Where are all these 'whippers out of breasts'? I live in an area where 85% of women breastfeed at birth and I've never seen anyone swinging their baps around in the shopping centre.