To think my sister is selfish for choosing not to breast feed?

[IHateWinter]

She hasn't even had her baby yet but has already decided that she doesn't want to try it and if she does she'll only do it for a month at most.

I've told her that breast milk is healthier and gives the baby antibodies etc, but she won't listen to me. I gave her a baby book that explains why breast is best but she won't read that either.

What else can I say? I worry about my future neice. I understand that she many not want to carry on doing it for a long time, but I really do feel that if you have a baby you have the responsibility to try and give it the best start in life. I really feel she is more concerned about what her breasts will look like than her babies needs.

I'm suprised by how strongly I feel. I find myself avoiding her in case I end up saying something upsetting. Am I being unreasonable?

Oh, and before anyone says, I AM NOT A TROLL I am a regular poster who has name changed.

"Because for some women it is simply not part of their culture - maybe stretching back several generations.

Cultural norms are incredibly powerful, especially when they involve sexuality.

I remember reading a book where a woman comments that when she was pregnant the idea of bf was so alien to her that she could imagine milk coming out of her elbow more than she could imagine it coming from her breast!

You can't overcome powerful social mores and traditions in a few short years, even with a barrage of public health promotion - social change just can't happen that quickly."

Most people know what their boobs were meant for in the UK. You would have to be living on a different planet not to know.

Do you like the way I copied your post back to you? I think it is really effective at proving my point - don't you think.

Sabire,

If I was to argue with you that you had convinced me black was white you would then argue white was black.

TBH I never disagreed with you, on any of your points, but originally I was just trying to appreciate why people may choose to ff.

"Most people know what their boobs were meant for in the UK. You would have to be living on a different planet not to know."

Knowing that you can bf a baby is irrelevant if you have only ever seen babies bottlefed, were bottlefed yourself, don't know anyone who breastfeeds, and are surrounded by people who are mortified by the very idea of breastfeeding.

(c+p'ing is the business, I agree!)

Sabire,

"Knowing that you can bf a baby is irrelevant if you have only ever seen babies bottlefed, were bottlefed yourself, don't know anyone who breastfeeds, and are surrounded by people who are mortified by the very idea of breastfeeding"

Ummm...which culture is it which believes in 100% bottle feeding? I am curious as I have a fairly diverse set of friends from different races and religions, and bf does not (to me) seem to split culturally. Given that there was no effective FF until the early 20th century, an aversion to bf must be a recent (historically) cultural norm!

Also, if one gives birth in the NHS, one cannot but be exposed to other mothers breastfeeding on the ward.

In short, do you have any facts to support your comment above about these (highly theoretical) women you mention?

Breast feeding Nazi - get over yourself. What's lacking in your life that you have to be so preachy?

Don't think there's any call for comparing the OP's concern for her niece/nephew with the leaders of the Third Reich is there ?

May I invoke Godwin's Law ?

Dammit Fibilou, I go away to do something other than mess around on Mumsnet and I miss calling a Godwin!

Arrrrr !

Ali, the bf rates for the UK vary hugely according to geography, social class and age.

In some parts of the UK - on some of the big ccouncil estates where there's lots of deprivation and many young mothers (who are even less likely to breastfeed) only about 17% of women put their baby to the breast even once.

And across the board the majority of babies in the UK over the age of 4 weeks are not getting any breastmilk at all.

I suspect that breastfeeding initiation rates have gone up because of the influence of public health campaigns, but many women switch to bottlefeeding as soon as they get home from hospital, as this is what they know, trust and feel comfortable with. There is a very widespread lack of confidence in bf among mums in this country - most women will say 'you're lucky' if you can breastfeed, or 'I'll try to breastfeed, but I won't beat myself up about it if it doesn't work'. Gosh, we've even got our own set of well-worn cliches to wheel out in the generally expected event of breastfeeding failure! There are even women who decide not to try to breastfeed because of the fear of failure. How sad is that?

aligrylls - i gave birth on the NHS and didn't see anyone bf on the wards

The 'flat earther' comment was a reference to the inability of some people on this thread to accept what is blindingly obvious to everyone else who has more than a passing knowledge of the subject of infant feeding. You reject as 'un-factual' all scientific and medical research which raises questions about the safety and efficacy of formula, because it makes you uncomfortable to admit that there might be something there worth thinking about. I would like to ask you, when it comes to your baby, is it only in relation to bf and ff that you reject the validity of good quality research like the Dundee study, despite the fact that it is accepted by all the major health organisations and forms the basis for NHS advice given to parents as to how to optimise their children's health and safety?

You want me to trawl through this vast thread and tell you where I am noting a judgemental attitude to parents who ff? Seriously? And yet you can say, on the basis of my two posts in which I said virtually nothing about research, that I think research is unfactual? You asked me where I drew my conclusions from about your thinking.. so I ask you where did I reject the evidence? I never rejected the research. I merely think that there are situations in which formula is a necessity - it wouldn't be my choice (so why would I be uncomfortable with the 'risks' associated with it, my lifelong decision has been to breastfeed and breastfeed alone?), I just don't believe it is an imperative to make women who ff feel bad about their choice. I am not saying that you do, or that other posters here do, but I have seen it happen in real life and I disagree with people quoting research that makes other women feel bad about themselves as mothers just because they have 'more than a passing knowledge of the subject of infant feeding'. What would you say to my cousin who CANNOT feed because her milk DID NOT COME in? (Bearing in mind she is a midwife and lactation consultant and already devastated by this?)

Parenthood is rarely a black and white issue, except in relation to clear abuse, and ff doesn't fit that category for me, whatever the apparent risks.

Before you once again lambaste me for being pro-ff, I will NOT use formula and I will exclusively breastfeed so I am not pro-ff in any way - just pro-empathy and understanding for others' choices.

I take your point about the variation in geographical location.

You refer to council estates in your argument. These are areas where lack of education is the problem and I imagine it is not so much a problem of culture but one of education.

You are correct in saying bf initiation rates have gone up - when I was at university bf was the topic of many lectures, particularly about how to improve people's awareness of the benefits. They are achieving their aims and bf rates have gone up in recent years.

You refer to most women ffing as soon as they come home from hospital and I am not entirely sure that this is true. Out of everyone I have met who started in hospital I don't actually know one person who gave up as soon as they got home. For most of them there were problems which were not dealt with in hospital, eg, "milk not coming through" (which was probably caused by stress) and pain caused by various. They tried to remedy the problems by seeing HPs and for whatever reason the problem did not go away. Maybe they should have persisted a bit more or sought better help but this does come at a price. What do you think would be an alternative? Making sure that a woman does not leave hospital until she can get a good attachment - that would also come at a price which the NHS might not be able to afford.

You are probably right that there is a lack of confidence about it - I don't always think HPs are supportive in the right way - they are not particularly encouraging or helpful and some are just really pushy. Before I had BGrylls I felt that the people I was encountering were putting so much pressure on me to do it without even asking "what are you going to do?"

You are correct in saying that there are cliches and people say things like 'I'll try to breastfeed, but I won't beat myself up about it if it doesn't work'. That is exactly what I said - for me, psychologically, it helped to tell myself that as well. When people say this they are trying to protect themselves from disappointment and failure and it probably does help them to cope if it does go wrong.

Mrsbean, you have summarised really nicely how I feel on the subject. Thank you.

I'm still following this thread & am glad it's going strong because it's interesting I say that because it's a bit tiring- and fairly new on MN? or am I wrong?- to have people coming on threads that are running for ages & say repeatedly 'can't believe this is still going!!'. Well it's still going because some people obviously are interested in the debate so that's that.

Just wanted to say something that I'm sure others have said before me (so forgive me). I think guilt for ff has a big role to play in all this. Lots of women try & fail to bf, not necessarily because of not trying but for various other reasons (which we've touched upon here). (Some of course choose actively not to bf, fair enough). When these mothers who ended up ff because they didn't 'manage' bf hear about the benefits of bf or the difficulties some other mothers manage to overcome in order to bf successfully, they take it as a personal afront. However, it's one thing to say 'the feelings of women who end up ff should be respected' and they should: absolutely. And it's another thing to say the benefits of bf shouldn't be openly discussed & even promoted, and mothers shouldn't be supported in bf. The problem I've felt at times is that I couldn't even say that I thought of my bf as an achievement- succeeding to bf despite various problems- because it was taken as a put-down to mothers to didn't bf (for whatever reason). But it's not a put down at all.

What I'm saying is: it's not necessary to prove that ff is equally good to bf in order to justify one's choice to ff. It's absolutely a valid choice to ff (for whatever reason, without justification) & after all, formula is a good, healthy alternative. But it's equally a valid choice to believe bf is important & has benefits compared to ff. Difficult to find a balance between these 2 positions!

MrsBean I haven't 'lambasted you' for being 'pro formula'!

"I disagree with people quoting research that makes other women feel bad about themselves as mothers"

Come on - it depends on the context surely? There are women on this thread who have engaged in the dialogue who may well feel bad about some of the things they have read here. I'm sorry if that happens, but are engaging in a debate.

"What would you say to my cousin who CANNOT feed because her milk DID NOT COME in? (Bearing in mind she is a midwife and lactation consultant and already devastated by this?)"

Why would I say anything to her about her experience of feeding her baby? This is an internet board which invites women to debate issues. You can't extrapolate the discussions here into real life social encounters with mothers! Are you infering that I'd corner this mother at a postnatal clinic and lecture her on the perils of formula feeding unininvited or something!

Re: the issue about research - apologies if my comments were not a response to your particular posts - I think I got into a muddle about who said what. Does sometimes happen on long, complex threads like this....

"for me, psychologically, it helped to tell myself that as well. When people say this they are trying to protect themselves from disappointment and failure"

Yes - I wouldn't disagree with that. However, implicit in the statement 'I won't feel bad if it doesn't work out' is a failure to understand and accept that it's fairly normal and healthy to experience real sadness and feelings of loss about not being able to breastfeed. I would never tell anyone 'don't feel bad if you can't breastfeed'. I was very sad when I had to stop bf my third (I became too ill to breastfeed). I felt that my emotions were being trivialised by people who told me it didn't really matter. I kept wanting to say to them - actually it does matter to me, and I want to come to terms with it in my own way.

Half the time people say this to each other and to themselves because they don't know what else to say; because as a society we don't understand well what the bf relationship between a mother and child can involve in terms of emotion, we trivialise the loss of it. I suspect that some people see bf as some sort of masochistic thing over-achieving middle-class mothers do as part of the competitive parenting thing. So if you have to stop it's very much - well you don't have to be perfect do you? Which frankly, misses the point for most women by a mile.........

As someone who came motherhood very late (I was 38 with child no 1) and who was a very selfish, single woman who never gave a thought to breast feeding.
Bottom line was my partner suggested that BFing was better for a baby (based on what he'd read and knew already) and left it up to me.
Despite being in my late 30's and never knowing anyone who'd actually bfed, I STILL knew already that it was the best option.
TBH i really wasn't that keen but I did it because I couldn't argue that it wasn't the most sensible choice.
I would have felt shit if I hadn't at least tried.
Is this unusual??

mode of feeding doest confer special status

IO think the scientific consensus is that formula can raise a child healthily as much as breast milk can. Its a matter of huge nuance as to how mucch 'better' a breast fed infant will do both physically and socially. Class issues are a much greater predictor of outcome, as is education. A mother who is intellegent and aware of choices who fomula feeds is much more likely to raise a healthy, socially thriving child than a mother of low class, education and self expectation who breast feeds. Mothers do the bhest for their kids, in the environment they find themselves in. That is what all of these studies find. end of

sigh
but they don't...

Sabire, I completely agree with what you said. When BGrylls had his problems my family were very much saying to me just give him a bottle - they did not seem to appreciate what it meant to me (which resulted in me not speaking to them for a few days).

DH and I were discussing this thread this morning - in particular the class differential. From what we understand poor people in this country get subsidised formula milk. I think it would only be fair if they had a choice between subsidised formula or food vouchers for themselves, in order to act as an incentive to bf.

Secondly, in my mother's day (many years ago) a woman did not leave hospital until she actually knew how to bf. Nowadays, as they are so busy they can't wait to get you out so unless you are really motivated to bf it would be easy give up. I feel that if the government is really dedicated to increasing the numbers of bf'ers they should go back to this.

Formula only vouchers ceased a few years ago, AliGrylls. Healthy Start vouchers can be exchanged for a range of healthy foods and/or formula.

The days when mothers were kept in hospital were no help to bf - what's needed is proper community help after a mother comes home.

That's where the support is really needed.

We are never going to go back to hospital stays of a week or more - no one would want that, I don't think, and in any case, it ain't gonna happen!

"IO think the scientific consensus is that formula can raise a child healthily as much as breast milk can.."

Oh. I thought I'd read a lot of scientific studies on how bfing reduces the risk of various cancers, obesity, gastroenteritis to name but a few.

I must have misread them all and those advocating breast feeding as the better option for mother and babies must just have a bee in their bonnets. End of.

Duh.

Agree with Wotmania. Most people give up due to lack of support- there's pain, difficulty etc. That said, I think every mum should try it and I get really angry when they won't...especially when the same people go all out to buy the best food for the rest of the family and even the cat..have you seen what is in formula? Eggs, fish, chemicals...
And the money is better used for something else. And who has time for sterilising bottles? I never did; I think I saved a fortune. But it was a nightmare at first and loads of people tried to make me stop- give her loads of encouragement, especially around resting and eating well.

I think one thing that would encourage more 'educated/interested' mums to breastfeed is if the information given out by breastfeeding counsellors was actually more thorough and research-based. Apologies Tiktok and others if you already do this. But all that we were told at our NCT breastfeeding session was that breastfeeding was 'better' and a few reasons why. The problem is, women are often told this by the very same people who spent the last 9 months telling them not to eat brie - an absolutely absurd directive, in my opinion.

Speaking personally, I would have much preferred to be told: you can eat whatever cheese you want, there's approximately a 1 in 100,000 chance you might get listeria from unpasteurised cheeses. Why don't you make your own decision?

Likewise I would like to have been told: here's the evidence that breastfeeding is more healthy. This is how it was adjusted for variables such as social class, education later in life etc. Then I would have had more information to make my own decision.

I think a lot of time is spent preaching to pregnant women and new mothers: do this, don't do that - without making it clear what the risks are in each case, and how serious they are. Which can lead to a bit of a 'boy who cried wolf' situation going on.

joanne - I don't recognise your picture of breastfeeding counsellors not giving our thorough researc-based information at all. Trained breastfeeding counsellors are required to show an understanding and knowledge of research and how to share it...I don't know what you mean about telling people not to eat brie in pregnancy. I have never told anyone what to eat in pregnancy! I expect NCT teachers direct pg mothers to the govt. information pages on this. Bfcs have no input into pregnancy diet info.

The breastfeeding class spends very little time on why breastfeeding is better - most bfcs have about 2 or 2.5 hours to build people's confidence, give them a heads-up about how to get support, enable them to think what it will be like to have a new baby, what helps bf go well and what doesn't.

It's a breastfeeding class - if people want to spend more time on the decision about whether or not to breastfeed, then there are other and better means than the class. The sort of thing you are asking for would take at least 45 mins to even touch upon; the class is a unique oportunity for some interactive discussion and preparation. The purpose of the class is not to demonstrate why and how bf is 'more healthy'.

If any individual class member wants to know more, inc the research aspects, then any counsellor worth her salt would help them get more information.