To think my sister is selfish for choosing not to breast feed?

[IHateWinter]

She hasn't even had her baby yet but has already decided that she doesn't want to try it and if she does she'll only do it for a month at most.

I've told her that breast milk is healthier and gives the baby antibodies etc, but she won't listen to me. I gave her a baby book that explains why breast is best but she won't read that either.

What else can I say? I worry about my future neice. I understand that she many not want to carry on doing it for a long time, but I really do feel that if you have a baby you have the responsibility to try and give it the best start in life. I really feel she is more concerned about what her breasts will look like than her babies needs.

I'm suprised by how strongly I feel. I find myself avoiding her in case I end up saying something upsetting. Am I being unreasonable?

Oh, and before anyone says, I AM NOT A TROLL I am a regular poster who has name changed.

I never even considered BF when I was PG with DS, noone I knew BF and I did not know a thing about it so FF was the next best option. I don't regard myself as selfish, uninformed yes but selfish no, I did what was best for me at the time.

Peopkle have every right to think people are selfish but they ahve no right to say it! Many people FF for their own reasons you do not know all the facts until you have belittled someone so much about their choice that they explode into their reasons!

I hate the fact on here that no matter what people do they cannot be right and it descends into this bitch fest with catty comments chucked in for good measure.

Whether it be 'breast is best' or 'Formula is the next best alternative' everyone is seen as wrong.

Anyway OP stop being so dramatic and self absorbed 'I worry about my future neice' GET OVER YOURSELF! It's not up to you so butt out!

I couldn't bf as my milk never came in and it broke my heart - DD is now 13m and I still beat myself up that she had formula but YABU - this is not your baby, this is your sister's and if you want to support her, respect her decisions.

And whilst breast is best, ff is not poison. I have a friend who exclusively bf till 6 months and then (IMO) made a hash of weaning. Her DS still refuses anything but purees (at 10m) and generally is fed shop bought jars. I followed BLW and DD eats anything and everything.
Not veering off subject but to make the point that bf is brilliant but it doesn't make you a 'good' mum nor does ff make you a 'bad' mum (& vice versa). There are so many other things that also make a difference - the baby will not come to harm with formula.

You never know, she may change her mind when the baby comes. I read Myleene Klass' diary and when pg, she was determined not to bf. When her baby came, the mw went off to get a bottle and by the time she came back, baby had latched on and Myleene bf for ages.

greenmonkies and sabire- I think the snippet I quoted is quite clearly making an analogy between the feelings of a person rendered seriously and permanently disabled due to lack of adequate medical care and a woman unable to breastfeed because of insufficient support. The implication is that a failure to breastfeed is akin to permanent paralysis in terms of its devastating emotional impact (and perhaps also the physical health impact on a baby?). Though I myself have experienced the emotional highs and lows of breastfeeding (and indeed find it somewhat ironic that all my contributions to this thread have been made one handed while breastfeeding my daughter) and have accessed support of varying quality, including fairly poor and fabulous, and feel very strongly that I want to breastfeed and that it is desirable for babies to be breastfed, I think that such an analogy is ridiculous in the extreme. It is probably precisely this sort of nonsense that makes sensible advocates of breastfeeding such as Professor Kramer have to clarify the research position and get misquoted in the process.

Really and truly, you have not understood that. The analogy is about getting to where you originally wanted to be (whether that's breastfeeding, or walking - without them being seen as equivalent, except in the sense that they may be hard to get to) thanks to people giving you encouragement through difficulty rather than just comiseration and comfort. Being given only comiseration and comfort implicitly tells you it's too hard and you can't do it, when perhaps, actually, you can.

You have told her how you feel and she has made it clear she disagrees. That is her right. If am a BF fanatic, but I will defend strongly any other woman's right to choose not to.

It is worth your sister considering the possibility that her baby might be intolerant/allergic to formula. If she allows her breast milk to dry up without knowing whether formula can be tolerated by her baby then she may live to regret it. You might think this sounds unlikely, but it has happened to TWO good friends of mine with very distressing results all round.
BUT the kids are fine now.

BF is that best start, but bottles are not a BAD start. Don't drive your sister mad with it

IHateWinter - sounds like you have already moved on in your thinking. Also sounds as if your sister is going to give BFing a try at least initially, so hopefully you can support her in that and all of her other parenting choices, and she will be the best mum she can be (and I'm not personally equating BFing with being a better mum, just to be clear here). I suspect she may need to be pretty determined to keep going with BFing over the - ime - common initial hurdles, but with your help she'll do the best she can. And if that means ff, it really will be okay. Remember that when you're a new mum everybody seems to be judging you/throwing info at you and you're lucky if you can remember your own name. Support her, give her as much practical help as you can/she can tolerate, and help her in the weeks and months to come. You do need to take your lead from her, as if you try to push your opinions on her, she really will just ignore you (think about all those MIL threads you've read here before ).

Sorry a bit of a ramble. LOL at your comment about therapy vs mumsnet btw .

Sabire, I was formula fed. I went to a good university. Had a job I enjoyed.

I don't resent not having that extra 5 point knocked off my IQ (if that is what it did) after all, it is 5 points not 20 and apparently my IQ is still well above average.

Also, one other question for you re this point - is the type of person who tries to breastfeed the type of person who cares about the health of their child and is therefore going to be more intelligent? There is a huge class differential in breast.

The exposure to cows milk argument. We are talking about heat treated cows milk - boiled at incredibly high temperatures not unmodified. As an alternative to breastfeeding where it does not work for whatever reason formula is a good option.

I would also like to point out that by not putting pressure on myself to bf I managed 3 months exclusive. Poor DS had a terrible problem of reflux and did not gain weight for nearly 5 weeks. I would have put his health at MORE risk if I had chosen to not include the high calorie formula recommended by his paediatrician. I am still breastfeeding but he needs to supplement.

I am all for exclusive breastfeeding where there are no physical problems however I am not into the idea that breast is the only option.

Sabire - cor blimey did you carry on all night?

The nastiest and most vitriolic expression I can think of on here (apart from any deleted by MN) is "moral illiterates". Comparing mothers who ff to someone who offers their kid a diet of McDos rather than fresh food is also pretty vitriolic in my view. And needing to 'adjust views' is fairly totalitarian in my book. All coming from 'people like yourself' (to quote you). I very much doubt I exceeded that.

The sources from which you get your info are some of the main contributors to the info provided to pregnant women in this country in ante-natal classes/hospitals/HV clinics and so forth. Having also had a child in a foreign country I have had access to research by other reputable organisations. I won't reference it because (a) its in other languages and (b) most people on here have busy lives. Prof Kramer is also published in French obviously given his location. Not only does he carry out his own research but, if you have read his real words he keeps abreast (argh I keep doing this!) of all the reputable work in the field. That's his job - that's what he's paid to do and what his international reputation relies on. It also relies on an ability to take a clear, unbiased view of the facts. And his conclusions are far more measured and qualified than many of the claims on here. Bfing has advantages but these are not without limit. For some women the drawbacks however they perceive those to be outweigh the advantages. I believe that we should respect individual decisions.
I am certainly not the only one here who believes that it is absolutely fine to advocate bfing but that all too often its most, shall we say, enthusiastic, advocates can appear to be hectoring, cajoling and frankly taking a judgmental view of their fellow women. The ability to know when to desist is an important lesson in life. And having said that I'll stop right here.

Except that that comparison wasn't made - you've extrapolated from one mention of McDonalds food to that - a mention that did not compare mothers at all in fact. People coming to this thread late and missing that will take from your post that someone has compared mothers who ff to someone who offers their child mcdonalds rather than ff, and from that they'll get the idea that that's what bf advocates do, but it wasn't actually done - you are perpetuating a myth by lazy quoting for the sake of making someone you don't agree with look worse than they really are.

That should say 'rather than fresh food', not 'rather than ff', of course.

at bellissima scolding others for 'hectoring'.....

Too often in discussions like this, people talk as if their little, personal slice of experience told a story that educates the world. Take Ali, who went to a 'good university' (hurrah! What a piece of luck it wasn't a 'rubbish' university or her whole argument would crumble!). The five points extra IQ she might have had, she says, have made no difference to her....hurrah again.

But on the margins, less intelligence makes a real, practical difference to life prospects and independence. Yes, even a few points.

Not that that matters to someone who went to a good university, of course, I know....and why should they care? Because we all live in a society which should want the very best for its citizens and to ensure there is nothing put in the way of mothers making a free choice to breastfeed (that shouldn't mean individual women being pressurised, but it can mean removing other barriers like discomfort, embarrassment, employment inflexibility etc).

The deliberate insistance that a poster simply equated formula feeding to feeding McDs - when she did not - could of course be the result of someone not going to a 'good' university

And studies on IQ do take into account social and educational background of the parents - this is an obvious confounding variable, which is always accounted for in any study, and yet people post on here with an 'Aha!' as if no one but them had realised it....as if no one but them had been to a 'good' university.

again.

I have just seen this thread on hot topics. Haven't read all the posts and realise I am probably adding to it when things have been WELL 'discussed' but...

...I think YANBU to want the best for your niece, and breast is unarguably best. It's just a shame that, at this point, your sister feels she doesn't want the best for her daughter. Hopefully when the baby is born she will feel differently and realise that only she can provide the best start in life that the baby could have.

It is perfectly reasonable for you to want to encourage your sister to at least try bf'ing, and to then stick with it.

Top and bottom is if she wants the best for her daughter she WILL bf, if she doesn't she WON'T. Doesn't have to stop you wanting the best for her daughter/your niece tho' you just can't force anything...shame, but oh well...

Thanks PurpleCrazyHorse and all the other posters, (the nice, the bad, and the ugly ) I GET THE POINT. Not what I would choose. But I guess I will go crazy if I keep on thinking about this and everything else my sister may or may not do I suppose.

But I don't know how to stop obsessing. I don't know how to switch off if i see her doing something I think is wrong or not ideal it's not just the BF. for e.g. we were talking about discipline once. (My mum and dad were of the generation where beating was acceptable; belt, whatever was in the hand and we got it, her much much less though)

I said I only realised when I had my own DCs that beatings weren't necessary, (and believe me, that was a revelation to me) and that imbuing confidence in children was important. Let them express themsleves without telling them to shut up as soon as they say something you don't like etc.
This is valuable stuff that other pepole take for granted that I've learned through experience. Not stuff we have been taught when growing up.

She said, her daughter's 'going to be under manners' and 'won't get away with any rubbish', and while she won't beat her, 'she will give her a slap if she steps out of line' Sigh.

Thing is this is how we were brought up. We didn't get bedtime stories, help with homework, interests taken in us beyond the average really. (not that they didn't do the best they could, that is what they knew)
But consequently we've all kind of stumbled about trying to work life out on our own and making some very big mistakes, which we wouldn't have made with more involved, clued up parents.

I've gone the opposite way from my family's way of parenting. This is what i'm trying unsuccessfully to pass along to my sister. But she won't listen to my advice on anything.

Gritting my teeth is the right expression.

Tiktok,

In a debate on the radio the other week on this subject it actually stated that many of the earlier studies failed to take into account such confounding variables, and it was actually acknowledged that there was very little difference to intelligence. By the way, Tiktok, can you explain statistically just how the confounding variables have been taken into account in the studies. It is almost impossible to design a real life study taking into account so many complex life variables. Clearly, though, for someone who implies she went to something far better than a "good" university, you should be able to explain these statistical techniques fairly easily. The study I cited above (written about at length in the Sunday Times recently) suggested the IQ difference is minimal if real. After all, where would this enhanced intelligence come from? There has to be a mechanism. Breast milk does not have a magical "X" factor in it!

What would you like people to do if they have problems with breastfeeding? Persisting? What happens when if they persist their child's weight falls below the 0.4th centile because they have not been fed properly and the child ends up in hospital? My point is where is your cut off point for when someone needs to supplement?

I have stated in my post that fundamentally I believe breastfeeding is best for the child but there is a point where a mother needs to think "is this really the best for my baby?"

YABextremelyU. You are of course entitled to your point of view, but if you look at the way anyone else brings up their children, they will make some decisions with which you disagree.

And some of the comments on here are truly unbelievable, e.g. "Top and bottom is if she wants the best for her daughter she WILL bf, if she doesn't she WON'T." Mamamimi, do you really think this?? Are you really not able to think of any other reasons why a mother might choose to bottle feed?

And as for 'breast is unarguably best' - it's only unarguable in a strictly medical sense. There are a number of other factors that need to be taken into consideration in deciding what is the 'best' way to feed.

If having a bit of formula is the worst thing that happens to your niece through the course of her life (or even her childhood) she'll be a very lucky girl. I mean this in the nicest possible way, but some people on this thread really have too much time on their hands/not enough serious things to worry about in their life.

Well I really struggled with BF. It wasn't easy with my first or second. But wanting to do MY best for my child made me persist. I had hard and cracked nipples, and I used to cry with the pain from latching on. I over produced and the pads got soaked in minutes when I went out. I smelt like a dairy. I had PND twice. I think some women don't realise how difficult BF can be for the first couple of months. If my sister comes up against these odds, I'm pretty sure she won't persist and she'll give up quickly. But yes, it is her choice, it may allow her to concentrate on other things (hopefully). There is nothing I can do about it.

tiktok - you know full well because you referenced him that Prof Kramer's balanced words talk about 3-4 IQ points - hardly anything as a percentage of overall IQ for the reasonably intelligent. Once again we have a sleight of hand by the pro-Bfers here to raise it to 5-6. Why? well I suppose 6 sounds an awful lot more respectable than 3 - you've doubled it at the margins. Prof Kramer's cautious words about more studies needing to be done vis a vis effects on gastroenterology seem to disappear in many of the claims on here, whilst his conclusions that any effects for asthma and allergies are controversial are, quite frankly, ignored. As I said, this is a man who's career and reputation stand on him taking a careful, balanced view.

Ali, I think it is correct that earlier studies did not take into account the confounding variables - the scientific method has been refined over the past 30 years or so and knowledge of stats has become more widespread. No respectable journal would publish a study that did not include proper contols, an account of variables, or at least an explanation of where more research is needed to break down the raw statistics.

If you read a paper - such as the Millennium cohort paper mentioned before - it tells you how the variables are allowed for.

There is no 'magical' factor in breastmilk. It's pure biology. There are several plausible mechanisms by which intelligence is affected by less than physiological early nutrition.

One piece of research looks at the interaction between fatty acids present in breastmilk and the baby's genetic make-up
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7075511.stm. 9 out of 10 babies have the requesite gene to make use of these acids which have been shown to be involved in brain development. This study showed that feeding accounted for a 7 point difference in intelligence - but only in those infants who had this gene.

There are many other papers, and some have sensible suggestions on why breastfeeding should have this effect - is the milk, solely, or is it the experience of being breastfed as well?

I gave no indication of what sort, if any, university I went to - good, bad, indifferent on none at all!

Where do my views on supplementing come into this? I don't think all babies should be breastfed at all costs. I think there are situations where formula supplementation is needed - where have I suggested otherwise? And you say 'your point' - your point! - is 'my' cut off point for supplementation? Irrelevant to the discussion, don't you think?

IHateWinter, it sounds from your last post as if this is a wider and bigger problem than just the breastfeeding. Clearly there were lots of things in your own upbringing that you feel rightly dubious about, and you want to make sure that your sister gets the chance not to repeat your parents' mistakes. This is good and very natural, but it's about how to make it possible. Rubbing your sister up the wrong way is clearly not going to achieve it.

First of all, you need to recognise that your sister has no idea as yet of what it will really feel like to be a mother. So many of us have been convinced pre-children that our children will be better disciplined that our friends'/go to bed at 7 every night/never talk back- and then we have to deal with the realities of life, and with our own totally changing feelings.

This may even happen to your sister re the beastfeeding. If she does find herself (as I did) in a hospital where breastfeeding is encouraged/on a ward where some nice other women are doing it/where the midwives are eager to help- she may well decide to give it a twirl after all.

Secondly, you need to recognise that even if your parents' methods may not have much to recomment them, there may be several different ways of doing things better (thinking about the discipline issue here rather than feeding). Again, you don't know how motherhood will affect your sister- she may feel totally different to what she expects, she may make friends who are a good influence on her, it may even be that she works out her own parenting methods that work well for her.

My little brother's parenting methods are drastically different from mine. But I have to say they are working well for his family.

bellissima - what sleight of hand? I was responding to a post which mentioned 5 IQ points. I know Prof Kramer's assessment of 3-4. Other studies show widely varying scores, and if people had quoted those in their posts here, I would have discussed those. I am pretty sure Prof K's assessment is measured and sensible, and based on an overall look at the evidence.

You are so unpleasant to discuss this with - you ascribe views to people they don't have and then proceed to demolish them. I make no claims at all for the allergy and asthma stuff - I have said many times on mumsnet and possibly on this thread too that this area of research is weak and under-evidenced. The current official breastfeeding literature in the UK makes very little of allergy as a 'reason' for breastfeeding, and quite right too.

Bellissima - you are being pretty rude here - I suggest you re read some of your posts and take a closer look at what you are accusing others of doing.

I don't think I'm being nearly as rude or judgmental as 'people like yourself' (quoting Sabire. she brought that up first). You seem to object to anyone who argues against you. Quite a few people have replied YABU to the OP and gone on to tell her in fairly direct terms what they think of her actions or indeed what they think of her full stop - sometimes in ways that I consider a bit rude even though I agree with the YABU!
You have jumped in on the back of the OP's question to go on at some length with your arguments and your need to 'adjust' any one's personal experience which might contradict your message. Whilst nevertheless feeling free to quote your own personal experience at length, along with endless research papers. As joanneg20 put it, perhaps more gently than me, some people here seem to have rather too much time on their hands. But if you jump in en masse then surely you can't object too much when someone argues back. As I've already said, I have never called anyone a 'moral illiterate' or anything like that.

OP - I would feel like you too, but the answer isn't to nag her about it - you may just make her even more adament that she won't even try.
If you both 'entrench' your positions before the baby is even born then she will find it even harder to 'change her mind'.

You need to support her in her choice - perhaps focusing on the 'at least try it' (if she's said she'll try it for a month?).

This website BeAStar has some useful ideas for changing young girls'/ women's perceptions of BF.

Ah, I get it bellissima - you think discussion should have stopped after each 'YABU' post, and anyone responding to any of those posts is 'jumping in' with some kind of agenda.

So it's OK for you to respond to posts and argue against points made in them if you disagree with them - but not for people you call 'pro-BFers'. They have to just leave things they disagree with unanswered. They have to know when to stop or otherwise they're hectoring or trying to 'adjust' people's experiences.

Now I can see where you're coming from. One rule for you, one for people you disagree with.

Can't see anywhere where Zooropa describes her personal experience - I haven't either.

Bellissima - try reading people's posts properly. Just a hint