To think my sister is selfish for choosing not to breast feed?

[IHateWinter]

She hasn't even had her baby yet but has already decided that she doesn't want to try it and if she does she'll only do it for a month at most.

I've told her that breast milk is healthier and gives the baby antibodies etc, but she won't listen to me. I gave her a baby book that explains why breast is best but she won't read that either.

What else can I say? I worry about my future neice. I understand that she many not want to carry on doing it for a long time, but I really do feel that if you have a baby you have the responsibility to try and give it the best start in life. I really feel she is more concerned about what her breasts will look like than her babies needs.

I'm suprised by how strongly I feel. I find myself avoiding her in case I end up saying something upsetting. Am I being unreasonable?

Oh, and before anyone says, I AM NOT A TROLL I am a regular poster who has name changed.

Her baby, her decision. I wouldn't let anyone try and force their opinions on me with regard to breast feeding. Formula will not kill the baby!!

OK, I can see why my comment might have been hurtful, and I apologise, though it wasn't my intention to insult anyone.

The point I was trying to make is that these threads are always full of people bleating that formula isn't poison. I just get sick of that same line over and over again because it has no meaning. Of course formula isn't poison and no-one would give it to their child if it was.

But it does need to be kept in mind that forumla is an inferior milk for babies, in the same way that McDs is inferior to home-cooked meals full of fresh ingredients.

If I had the choice of feeding my child McDs or starving them, then of course I would feed them McDs, and without any guilt whatsoever. However, god, how to say this without pissing anyone off?..... If home-cooking made my boobs saggy, I would darned well still cook for them rather then feed them McDs!

Again, and I've said this a million times, I have nothing but respect and admiration for women who have tried to bf, tackled huge physical and emotional obstacles to do so, but not succeeded. At least you tried, which means that you are in no way a failure in my book and shouldn't feel any guilt at all.

Annie - I breastfed. I acknowledged the benefits and I bfed, even if it did make my boobs a bit saggy.

But there is NO WAY (sorry to shout, actually no I'm not sorry) that I would use the same analogy ie between b milk/formula, and home cooking/McDs that you do. That is what is (still) offensive and if you can't see it then I despair. Yes we know that ff manufacturers make profits and yes we know that in the (now quite distant) past the behaviour of one company in Africa was reprehensible. But that does not mean that formula now does not take account of scientific advances and contain many of the 'goody' ingredients in breast milk. Mothers who ff are certainly not giving their babies the equivalent of a McD diet rather than home cooking.

Interesting article here about how equivocal the research into the health benefits of breastfeeding is... Apparently only the gastro-enterinal benefits are truly proven scientifically speaking. I love breast feeding, btw, and felt emotionally wrecked at possibly having to stop earlier than I wanted recently. That was all about me and not my baby though, I think.

bellissima - it's always difficult to get an analogy and I agree that Annie's doesn't cut it.

On a point of information, it was and is all the major formula manufacturers who continue to market formula inappropriately all over the world, with devastating consequences across continents - not just 'one' company in the 'distant' past 'in Africa'.

I don't object to formula manufacturers making profits. Unethical marketing is not acceptable, though.

There is no evidence I am aware of that formula has advanced in quality significantly in the past few decades, by the way. There have been some minor additions to the ingredients - there's no evidence that these have brought 'scientific advances' to infant nutrition in the sense of benefitting the consumers of it.

Women who use formula - for whatever reason, and I don't distinguish between women who tried and women who did not, as I wouldn't presume to judge people's reasons - deserve as much information as women who breastfeed. The fact is they don't get it. Good information is not the same as adverts, and people rolling their eyes and saying 'it's not poison, you know!'

Scummymummy - I was going to go on to say that whilst I acknowledged that bfing had some benefits, it was important not to overstate these (but then realised what that would unleash....)

Scummy - so you didn't see where the Prof complained about his remarks as reported:

www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/01/2009_29_thu.shtml

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/press-twisted-my-words-says-academi c-in-breastmilk-row-1766147.html

I said bfing has some benefits but it is important not to overstate these. I wouldn't change that opinion even after reading the noble Professor's actual rather than misreported words.

YABU.

I hadn't, tiktok. Thanks for the links.

As I understand it, Prof Kramer says in that excerpt that while the benefits of breastfeeding are exaggerated in terms of being well supported by the available evidence and the research quality of that evidence is often poor, there are no known health benefits of formula. So all else being equal, breastfeed your baby but it is not the elixir of life in terms of preventing all illnesses under the sun. That seems very balanced to me.

I understand the point you are trying to make AnnieLobeseder!

I have to say I find it rather sad that FF companies and manufacturers have become so successful that if anyone says they think it is better for women to BF and only use FF as a default they are flamed by other mums.

I also find it rather wierd that many people express disgust when they see women BF in public but see a bottle as more acceptable. It's sad that some women are scared off BF because of concern that their breasts may no longer be as sexually enticing as they were before and put preserving them first, despite the obvious advantages to baby, and then they have that idea validated by other mums.

I don't think you are being flamed for saying breastfeeding is better, IHateWinter, you're being flamed for wanting to control how your sister feeds and for being so judgemental of her choice.

I do agree that it is a great shame if people express disgust about women breastfeeding in public. I've done it - I've even breastfed in church, and very few people even notice, and I've never had a single negative comment. I hope and pray that my experience will become the norm. I'm not actually sure how many breastfeeding women get negative comments when feeding in public - it would be very interesting to find out.

YANBU at all to think it IMO, it's a pretty sad state of affairs when a mammal feels unnatural using her breasts to feed her infant! But not right to have a go at her about it, that doesn't usually change much, and your relationship with your sister is an important one I expect. Furthermore, she hasn't had the baby yet - she may actually find that she adores breastfeeding in a way that she could never have predicted. Don't jump the gun.

IHateWinter - I think the consensus of the majority on here is that YABU for trying to impose your views on your sister, not for expressing (argh! sorry) general thoughts on the subject of bfing. And who on earth has criticised anyone for bfing in public? Maybe if you want to discuss that you should start another thread (not that I think you'd find many in the criticising camp).

As i said before, I have taken all commments on board and have resolved not to mention it agin to sis, on the basis that as many of you said, it won't help our relationship any and I want to be involved in helping out with niece. My sister is stubborn anyway to be honest.

If this were someone else un-related I would still think them a little self-absorbed but say nothing. Where I don't believe IABU though is to be concerned. Bearing in mind all the things I've said about the fact that we have a history of allergies in our family (I'm asthmatic too), I think I am pretty damn right to have expressed concern about the fact that something that may help healthwise, and is within my sisters reach has been dismissed not on the grounds of PND/illness/BTW/ etc but purely on I don't want to lose by breasts - /put boyfriend off my breasts argument.

BUT as I said, i'm dropping it, and will bite lip till it draws blood if I have to.

The shame is, (see the 'real' words of the Prof) that it would appear that there is precious little evidence that bfing does help with allergies and asthma. Believe me, I find that a shame too. But good for you for dropping it.

Scummy - Prof Kramer could very happily complain to you as well about being misinterpreted!

Isn't that what he's saying in the woman's hour piece? That he's v pro breast feeding and there is some research that supports its health benefits but that other claims are exaggerated, partially because the debate around breastfeeding is so polarised? I'm not trying to misinterpret him, honestly. I never considered not breastfeeding myself and am sure there are benefits for the baby- the gastrointestinal benefits seem well supported by research, for example- but I've always considered that the main benefit is that it makes me feel happy.

Good study here? Lots and lots of proven benefits but also wide range of quality of evidence and confoundng is a particular problem. I really would like to know what proportion of formula fed babies in the west have problems that can be directly attributed to their being formula fed... Is formula really not "good enough"?

Gastrointestinal and respiratory infections are, I believe, the strongest proven risk reductions of breastfeeding. Even if it is only these things, I would say they are very important - or could be. Gastroenteritis can be very serious in a young child, as can respiratory infections. Not the be all and end all, but enough for a public health campaign? The dept of health/who clearly agree.

Totally agree with general mood -- YANBU to feel that way but best not to say anything more. I know lots of mums like Bucharest, and some who were desperate to but couldn't. Best to never judge, either way.

If you just cannot keep your mouth shut then drop into conversation something about the weight loss. I carried on eating like a pig but have never been slimmer than when I started my DSs on solids at 6mos+.

Best diet ever.

PS I totally agree that it is the best thing ever for Mum and Baby. We have to encourage, and support, but then back off.

The evidence is there for those who will see -- but people smoke, and do all kinds of things that are stupid unwise, for themselves and their kids. Within boundaries, the alternative to 'our bodies (or our kids), our choice' is even more unpalatable.

Research will never be able to isolate formula feeding or breastfeeding as the sole 'cause' of anything; to know, for sure, exactly what proportion of ff babies experience some particular outcome as a direct result of being formula fed is impossible. Science, or at least epidemiological science, cannot work that way. The paper you link to, Scummy, is written in the language of research which does not ascribe causality - perfectly properly.

We accept, I think, that cot death/SIDS is multi-factorial. Various elements are a factor - smoking parents, for example, are more likely to suffer the tragedy of cot death....but we cannot (or should not) say that smoking 'causes' cot death. Ditto with the 'back to sleep' thing - sleeping face down does not 'cause' cot death.

In fact, though, the evidence we do have for ff's association with adverse health outcomes is rather stronger than the cot death evidence because we do have a number of well-controlled studies in a variety of settings that have managed to isolate feeding method by controlling for other socio-economic factors that could also impact on health. But we can't ever point to an individual baby and say 'formula caused his diarrhoea' or 'breastfeeding would have stopped her from having that ear infection'.

On a public health level, there is plenty of evidence that less formula feeding would lead to better health.

None of this means women should be made to feel bad if they do not breastfeed, or put under pressure to breastfeed. Women's bodies in our western, modern culture, are subject to so many visible and invisible pressures and meanings that to some, 'encouragement' to breastfeed can feel like a pressure too far. Personal feelings about one's body, personal experiences with one's body...they can be very strong and be stronger than any other influence.

But it doesn't help anyone to pretend it is of no importance how a baby is fed...or it only matters a tiny bit, or that it should only matter if it can be proved that a whole string of illness is directly caused by ff.

Tiktok - can I ask a specific question. WRT the decreased risks of gastroenteritis, is that based on figures from round the world, or from the West? In other words, where there is good access to clean water and to the things needed to ensure that bottles etc are clean, is the risk of gastroenteritis still higher amongst formula fed babies?