Am I being unreasonable .. about sleep

[TotsDaddy]

We have twins, now aged 2y10m and a little girl aged 11m.
The twins didn't sleep through the night until they were a year old, both had a 10pm and 4am feed. The 10pm feed continued untill they were over 2, I was exhausted. At the time my wife declared that she didn't believe in sleep training techniques, and there was nothing we could do except grin and bear it. It was if fact so bad, that that the constant waking damaged my eyesight ( No I'm serious, the consultant said, even before I mentioned our situation, "This sort of damage to the cornea is caused by stress and continued sudden waking")

When we had the little girl I hoped we could do better. She is now almost 1, and has been cuddled/fed to sleep on a regular basis. Again any form of sleep training has been rejected outright. She still feeds at 10pm and 5am, and for the last week has spent 2am until 4am awake while been cuddled back to sleep.

I'm told that this is all just normal and if I really asked people in private they would admit it was quite typical.

So.. am I being unreasonable about sleep?

Good post lenin.

OP YANBU.
Sleep training does not have to be CC there are gentler methods.

In your shoes, with a partner that insisted on no sleep training at all - or even researching different methods - I'd go get ear plugs and leave them to all the night wakings.

But again, this is MY view, how I feel about it and I completely respect that other parents do things differently.

surely your lodger goes out sometimes, girls.

and besides, have you ever had the thrill of possibly getting caught? exhilarating, ime.

Actually bizarrely foxy he doesn't go out much at all!

Except on a Saturday night when DH is out driving his cab.

Now that is somewhere we could do it

Snort at this thread!

Have people really said that you should have sex in the kitchen to enable to you to co-sleep with a toddler who can't sleep through the night?

they've said all sorts but you're the first to mention the kitchen table, ghouls. nudge nudge

We don't have a kitchen table

We have a kitchen table It's used for eating. Silly old boring me. Should be used for other things to add spice to our lives (would be kind of hard on the back though) while DS is spread out in our bed.

We also have a bathtub, sofa, floor etc etc. Many ideas to choose from. Point is to not disturb our toddler from sleeping in our bed apparently, so we have to leave our bed to have sex in order for him to stay in it . (And I speak as someone who did co-sleep for 9 months, so I know what I'm talking about. There was a reason we decided we wanted our space back. Because we just wanted that: our.space.back).

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how exactly a few hours' crying at 4-5 months or whatever is supposed to damage a baby for life. Supported by peer-reviewed research, of course, since anything less is apparently to be disbelieved.

I'm not advocating controlled crying. I am saying that if parents decide that they want to change their babies sleep habits so they can self soothe and sleep through, there may well be some crying in that process. In isn't a long term thing, allowing some crying to happen. And if you decide that you do not want your baby to cry at all then that's fine too, you just find another way that works for you. I get asked to help many parents get their babies to self soothe and sleep through and it is effective, the baby isn't traumatized, in fact they are happier and their parents are happier. Sleep deprivation is horrific and if you are desperate enough for sleep a few nights of crying may well be an acceptable trade off for better long term sleep prospects. It won't mean those children never have Sunday lunch with their parents as adults FGS! Some of the children I have worked with are 8-12 years old now and are happy and healthy and in no way still suffering from a week of sleep training in their 4th month of life!!!!!! They are smart and confident and lovely. Some of the harder "nuts" have gone on to have other issues such as dispraxia and ADHD which may well have played a part in their sleep issues in early life. There aren't enough studies done on the importance of sleep quality, quantity and capability in children IMHO. Sleep is so important and most children today are sleep deprived thanks to over scheduling, lax and late and nonexistent bedtime routines and other life circumstances which decrease or discourage enough sleep. My aim as a nanny is to make sure my charges get plenty of sleep from early on, are able to self soothe, and that the parents also make time to sleep and be well rested too. As adults though we can choose how much to sleep and have no choice but to cope when sleep deprived. Our children though need us to teach them the skills and importance of sleeping well. It's just as important as providing them with a good diet and lots of fresh air and exercise. And it's each family's choice what method to use to teach good sleep habits, crying or no crying doesn't matter if the end result is a happy and well rested child, surely?

It wasn't a case of not wanting my baby to cry at all (how on earth you would achieve that I've no idea). It was the extent of the distress he was in that made us stop pursuing that particular avenue.

Exactly Juule, babies will always cry, it's their main form of communication. I agree about the distress, if a teeny bubba is distressed as opposed to normal crying then that clearly shows the methods I use need to be modified until the distress is eased. Distress is different from crying. I don't allow "my" babies to be distressed and if they do become distressed I respond immediately and calm them and reassure them as I am not heartless. But if a baby cries as a response to a change in their normal nightly routine I give them the time and space they need to calm themselves without relying on outside intervention. It takes practice, like walking. I don't apply a one size fits all to every family I work with, rather I see what each individual baby is like first so I can adapt my methods to suit that baby. But as a general rule, consistency and repetition and patience are key elements, along with a lot of love. And I am always optimistic that the baby is capable of self soothing. I think the baby feels this, and responds to it. That might sound airy fairy but I do feel babies and children pick up on how you are feeling. So if they can feel you are confident and in control they can then feel reassured and secure. If you feel anxious and nervous and upset, they will respond by feeling insecure and upset. So I tell parents when they are sleep training to fake it, act business like and calm and in control even if you are weeping inside. It all helps create a calm environment to help your baby be calm themselves. And even if/when they cry they need to know you are the one in control. Love sometimes means you know what is best for your child, and sometimes short term crying is a means to an end. After all they can't have a lengthy convo with you about it all.

Anyway, I am waffling, too much caffeine and not enough sleep for me this last 2 weeks!

This is interesting from the Australian Assoc. for Infant Mental Health. Has references at the end but I've not looked them up.

Am I the only person who has had a child that they have had to do sleep training with again, and again, and again. I started probably about 6-8 months and it's worked for a bit and then my DS has started waking up a few times a night again. So I've done it again and it works for another few weeks and then it all goes wrong again.

I have now accepted that my DS is going to wake up in the night, just like I do. I have tried ignoring him. Last week he woke up at 2am and played until 7am. I wasn't paying him any attention, but he wasn't sleeping. On nights when he sleeps badly and he decides he does want attention, he will cry and cry for hours. It gives him nosebleeds and he will still cry. It's horrible.

As I said earlier in the thread - Not All Children Are the Same. Just like adults. Some of us suffer from insomnia, some people have no idea what that's like.

Just because your child sleeps through after you've trained them, it really doesn't mean that it will work with every single child.

The Science of Parenting might make an interesting read too.

There are claims that crying it out could lead to depression and anxiety later in adulthood.

"Where it is used recommendations should be for exercising caution and playing safe. For example, paying attention to level of distress rather than number of minutes baby has to be left to cry, or not
continuing with any technique if it does not feel right."

This is precisely what I do. I also fully expect babies to wake in the night as that's what we humans do, no matter what our age. If a baby has all of her needs met promptly and lovingly 24 hours a day, but is allowed to cry a little in the process of learning self soothing, I do not believe this causes any harm. I don't let the baby become a sobbing mess. I do allow a bit of protesting and wailing though. Nothing more than would happen during the day if the baby was to cry then. Babies cry, it's what they do and it could be for something or nothing, and it's unrealistic to expect otherwise. It's also unrealistic to expect parents to spend 24 hours a day ready to quiet their baby at the first sign of a squawk. It's a fine line. Do what suits your baby and don't judge others for their choices.

Many things could lead to anxiety and depression in adulthood. Chronic sleep deprivation for example. I can only speak from experience, and from under 100 children and their families, but the overwhelming anecdotal evidence is that a week devoted to helping a baby to learn how to self soothe WITHOUT allowing that baby to become distressed does not appear to have an effect on that child as they grow up. Each child is by all accounts "normal". Some have medical/psych issues that have not been medically diagnosed as being a result of the week of sleep training. No child or parent has threatened to sue me for negligence/damages/etc. I will watch with interest as these children grow up and see how they turn out. But as with all humans we are all different and we all have our quirks and foibles. I do not and cannot see that sleep training can cause any long term damage when the immediate and so far long term results are overwhelmingly positive.

But what if the baby becomes a 'sobbing mess' mananny? What happens then? Because that's what my DS will do. He will sob and sob and sob until he gets to sleep with me. For hours.

Then he isn't capable of self soothing yet, Scary. Some babies take longer than others to be ready. I would do a modified sleep training with him, starting with you deciding what you want within the realms of what your DS will tolerate without distress. If he is a sobbing mess every night it's more than likely a habit as he does get what he wants at the end of it: to sleep with you. If you don't mind him sleeping with you then take him in your bed right from the start and eliminate the crying from the get go.But if your aim to is have him stay in his own bed then I would recommend a few nights sleeping in his room if possible. He obviously still gets a lot of comfort from your proximity and until he is reassured that all is well without needing to be in your bed, he will carry on with the sobbing. He also knows the sobbing works, so he needs to know comfort is there without it being tied to his sobs if you see what I mean? It will take several nights for him to feel that the sobs aren't needed to get the comfort, and once he's sleeping okay with you nearby you can wait til he's asleep then go back to your bed. I've done this before taking 2 weeks of sleeping on an air mattress, so the baby feels my presence and is comforted by that enough that they can then get back to sleep themeselves just from feeling okay that I am there and NOT that I am actually intervening. This won't work with all babies though, some will be so determined to get the end result that has become a habit, then you might just need to either live with it and adapt your patterns to minimise the crying, or decide that you will try for a set period to allow a degree of crying and see what happens. If you choose this method you shouldn't feel guilty as you are doing it to help your baby learn to self soothe and if they are ready they will learn. If it doesn't work it's ok. You can't spoil a baby by giving too much attention etc. You can however encourage them to learn new skills as and when they are ready.

"Point is to not disturb our toddler from sleeping in our bed apparently,"

nope didn't say or hopefully even imply that. it is perfectly possible to have sex while a sleeping toddler is in the same bed and not waking him/her up.

i'm sure lots of people want their beds child free but using sex as a reason is well, puritanical. (though I'm sure quite a few Puritans had sex next to sleeping children in their day and age.)

A few thoughts.

First of all, I completely disagree in more ways than I can start explaining with the idea of having sex next to a sleeping toddler. I actually find that thought quite disturbing tbh. Could discuss more if you want. I don't mean it to be aggressive, I mean it completely seriously, I think it's seriously problematic to do that.

Second. I think there are as many ways to do 'sleep training' as there are parents. There are also loads of reasons why it doesn't work. Mananny explained it all well I think. I've only had the one experience, with my own DS, and I've heard many friends talk about their experience. IMO if a baby is a sobbing mess & is not responding to sleep training, then he/she is not ready for it & of course the parent should not go ahead, or there may be something else wrong e.g. the child not sleepy enough / calm enough etc. There are other things (IMO) to do do before working on night time sleep, e.g. ensuring there's a relatively calm & consistent bedtime routine, consistent nap-times, a kind of structured eating/sleeping routine in the day etc. If the parents are sure there's a good, calm structure in the day, then sleep training may be easier. Before I get flamed, these ideas are plainly laid out in the book 'The no cry sleep solution'.

Third. The 'research' cited (e.g. the science of parenting) & the idea of being able to connect depression & anxiety to crying it out in babyhood is highly dubious not to say completely wrong. Well I do believe these kinds of links are completely wrong so I might as well say it openly. So yes, I think these links are bullshit tbh as is this kind of research. It's based on extreme cases e.g. the romanian orphans who were left for days & months with no human contact, no cuddles, & cried & cried & cried. Some of them didn't fair well even when adopted so there were connections made with their early experience. There's loads to discuss about all this, but just to say, these extreme cases have absolutely nothing to do with the situation where sleep training goes on for a few nights, the crying involved is a few minutes at a time at most, and there is a wider loving & warm context in which the child feels understood. Also, if we want to be more specific, we'd have to take into accunt the pros & cons of having totally sleep deprived, irritable & resentful parents (as some- not all- parents become with chronic sleep deprivation) versus a few difficult nights.

Anyway, I say all this because I get tired & upset & kind of desperate to read about all this research which is highly ideological & has huge holes in it again & again & AGAIN. I know people mean well, I know they have their heart in the right place, but can't you see they're fighting with an imaginary enemy? If you were arguing with completely strict, harsh, cruel parents who left their children to cry again & again & again & consistently diden't reespond to them in all sorts of ways then I would agree wholeheartedly with you about this being detrimental. But this is not the kind of thing we lot are arguing!!

Maria, I really really recommend that you read Three in a bed by Deborah Jackson. Not to convince you to change any of the choices you have made but inform you of the history of sleep in Western Europe. It may ease and explain some of the problems you have with sex next to a toddler.

But if you like, I am curious to hear what you find so disturbing and problematic.