Am I being unreasonable .. about sleep

[TotsDaddy]

We have twins, now aged 2y10m and a little girl aged 11m.
The twins didn't sleep through the night until they were a year old, both had a 10pm and 4am feed. The 10pm feed continued untill they were over 2, I was exhausted. At the time my wife declared that she didn't believe in sleep training techniques, and there was nothing we could do except grin and bear it. It was if fact so bad, that that the constant waking damaged my eyesight ( No I'm serious, the consultant said, even before I mentioned our situation, "This sort of damage to the cornea is caused by stress and continued sudden waking")

When we had the little girl I hoped we could do better. She is now almost 1, and has been cuddled/fed to sleep on a regular basis. Again any form of sleep training has been rejected outright. She still feeds at 10pm and 5am, and for the last week has spent 2am until 4am awake while been cuddled back to sleep.

I'm told that this is all just normal and if I really asked people in private they would admit it was quite typical.

So.. am I being unreasonable about sleep?

[cory]

Also, why is it always assumed that everybody will get a better night's sleep with their DP than with a small snuggly child? My DP snores very loudly.

[cory]

The reason I gave up on sleep training was because I was frankly too lazy tired. Sleep training meant I had to get out of bed again and again and again. A muttered 'oh, in you get then' meant I didn't. Often I didn't have to wake up at all. So we were all getting a better quality of sleep.

In retrospect I am happy I didn't insist as it turned out that they were waking due to night pains. The GPs solution was to keep dd on permanent high doses of Co-Codamol. I found my keeping open house at night did the same job, saved the NHS a fortune, probably saved her kidneys- and saved me from having to crawl out of bed at 3 a m and administer same Co-Codamol. It's not as if she was still going to be in there when she's 16 (or even now she is nearly 13).

oh, and for this one:

"9) "They are unable to have sex". This for me is a mystery. If your child is with you most of the time (in bed, or on the sofa hanging out until midnight or so, or playing in the snow at 3 am- sorry couldn't resist the joke) WHEN do you have sex? I'm really curious."

In the slot after they had fallen asleep at bedtime and before they woke up in the night and wanted to come into parental bed. Which was usually a good few hours. Tbh I don't often feel very passionate at 3 am anyway, so fitting it into this time slot was no problem at all.

I am essentially a lazy and self-centered person. I wouldn't feed a child older than a year outside of normal waking hours and I wouldn't play in the snow at 3 am unless truly desperate - but I couldn't be bothered to put up a fight over the parental bed either. I value my sleep too much.

[neenz]

Aw, of course, whoosh. We all just do what we think is best for your kids. Some need us more than others (and at different times of the day).

I hope I made it clear in the previous post that I would NOT just ignore my child, change the sheets and put the child back to bed if they were sick! I would be mortified. Luckily it has never happened - they always give up before I do

Undacovermutha, I think what this thread has taught me is that what you (and I do) ie patting, shushing, going in after 5 mins, 10 mins etc, is great when it works and works quickly and consistently, but many people find it does not work well enough for it to be worth the 'pain', and get really pissed off when people say 'it's as easy as x, y and z'.

See I have been listening

[whooshspicemonster]

I think you're probably right neenz. I guess I'm just not hard-arsed enough. I have tried but after the 15th time of a week of pain and then going right back to the beginning all over again I have just given up.

When it comes down to it, although I like sleep I don't value it more than my DS's happiness. He's a really brave kid. He's had huge amounts of medical treatment and didn't make a fuss. And if he falls and smashes his lip open (which happens quite regularly) he really doesn't cry much at all. He's tough. So if he's crying, it means something and it's no less serious to me than it is during the day. He's nearly 3 too, so it's not just waaah-waah, it's 'mummy pleeeease, I don't want to be here on my own, pleeeease mummy, please'. I can't ignore that. I think I'd be a shit mother if I did.

[Undercovamutha]

Neenz - your HV is REALLY hardcore. And I thought I was tough (although DD has made herself sick twice during tantrums!).I really do believe in doing (almost) anything to get a goodnight sleep, but there is no way I could do that. I really do think (and it might be against the CC ethos - of which I don't know much) that as long as you don't give in (ie. take them into bed etc etc) there is no need to let them cry for any considerable length of time. I have always just gone in repeatedly, as soon as they got themselves REALLY worked up, calmed them down without picking them up (sshhhing, patting, singing, mobile etc), and then started again.

[juuule]

"But my HV once told me that kids will be sick during CC. I asked her what to do then and she said 'just ignore, change the sheets and put the child back to bed'"

That's where I went wrong then as that would be more than a step too far for me. Personally, I think that's callous.

[neenz]

Whooshspice, don't get so annoyed!

My DTs haven't always just cried for 5 mins, it has been an hour or two on the first night on the various times I did sleep training. But now on the rare times they do wake they go straight back to sleep.

You said in an earlier post that you do sleep training, then it goes wrong and you bring him into bed with you. I was just pointing out that maybe that is why it was going wrong.

IMO it is only because I have consistently not fed them/cuddled them/brought them into my bed that they now go back to sleep in five minutes.

As for him getting a nosebleed, that is very distressing and no of course I would not leave a child who had a nosebleed.

I am fortunate (yes I do accept I have been fortunate) not to have children who get themselves so worked up that they vomit etc. But my HV once told me that kids will be sick during CC. I asked her what to do then and she said 'just ignore, change the sheets and put the child back to bed' I said 'that is hardcore!' and thought even I wouldn't do that.

[whooshspicemonster]

How funny undercovermutha - he is a very random eater (some days loads, some days virtually nothing). But other than that, he is an absolute joy during the day. He's funny and sweet and cuddly and kind and everyone loves him. He does have the very occasional tantrum but he's easily distracted.

Just as well really or I'd have put him out by the bins otherwise

[Undercovamutha]

whooshspicemonster - I truly feel for you - I would hate to be in that situation.

I only hope that your DS is a little angel for you during the day !

My DD is 3 also, and as I said has always been brilliant with sleeping and eating - but oh the drama and the tantrums. Its like being on a rollercoaster. If I wasn't getting a decent nights sleep, someone would probably end up locked under the stairs, and it would probably be me !

[whooshspicemonster]

You are totally contradicting yourself:

'it doesn't work for all children' - great, good, we're agreed on that.

But then you go on to say: 'I was just pointing out that if you did keep doing it instead of taking him into your bed or giving him milk then perhaps you wouldn't need to do it over and over.'

I haven't tried it one night and then given up which is what that sentence seems to suggest. I've done it for nights on end, believe me. And eventually it has worked. But it only ever lasts a few months and then we're back to square one. But unlike your children, he doesn't cry for 5 minutes and then go to sleep.

It is usually 2 hours of solid crying before he falls asleep on the first night. Believe me, when you have disrupted your sleep as many times as I have to sleep train and it only works for a short period of time, eventually you decide to cut your losses and work with your child, rather than against them.

But that doesn't mean I don't dearly wish I didn't get disturbed every night. But, barring totally ignoring him every single time he cries in the night for ever, I can't see how that's going to happen.

[whooshspicemonster]

neenz - believe me I have done it over and over and over again. And it has worked. For a time

You're really not listening are you?

I have left him to scream for far longer than 5 minutes, believe me. But I am not prepared to leave him now he's older and gets even more upset.

Would you really leave your child crying if it had given them a nosebleed and think that was okay? Really?

[juuule]

Neenz as I've said earlier in the thread I have left my eldest screaming. He kept on screaming..and snotting...and retching.

I've left a couple of the others shouting for me knowing they would settle within a couple of minutes.

[neenz]

Juule, but if you never leave them screaming their heads off, how do you know that they won't settle? I only know because I have tried it.

Whoosh, I have said many times that it doesn't work for all children, it is you who seems to be saying that sleep training doesn't work because you have to keep doing it over and over. I was just pointing out that if you did keep doing it instead of taking him into your bed or giving him milk then perhaps you wouldn't need to do it over and over.

[Undercovamutha]

whooshspicemonster - its the joy of MN!

[whooshspicemonster]

neenz - my DS is nearly 3. He has never played happily in his cot. He screams, without fail, every single time he wakes up. Even in the morning.

Last time I tried leaving him to cry (and it wasn't even for very long) him he gave himself a nosebleed

If your children have learned to self settle, then brilliant. But please have the grace to acknowledge that not all children are the same

undercovermutha - LOL - isn't it funny how we only see the most polarised bits of the argument

[juuule]

Neenz, I do think there's an element of luck with your twins. Leaving them screaming their heads off when you know they will settle in 5mins is different to leaving them screaming and knowing they won't settle at all.

[neenz]

Whooshspice, you posted yesterday that you sleep train, then he has a developmental leap and it all goes to pot, so you have to do sleep training all over again just weeks later.

How old is your DS? When the DTs were 8mo I did sleep training successfully, but like your DS a few weeks later they started to wake again and I reverted to feeding them to sleep again (easy option), until a few weeks later when they were waking every night again (sometimes twice), and I had to do sleep training (again). This happened a few times before I realised that I had to stop reverting to the 'bad' habits when the sleep started to go wrong.

Now if they wake in the night, I go in, shush them or pick them up for a quick cuddle, put them back in the cot, Calpol if necessary (if teething or have a cold, which is usually the problem) and then left to cry. Within five minutes they are usually asleep again, even though they will be screaming their heads off when I first leave the room.

This is what my HV suggested btw.

I think perhaps if your DS is coming into your bed when his sleep goes wrong then it is going to make it harder for you to 'break' that habit again, therefore forcing you to do sleep training again. You need to be consistent in what you do when they wake, whether you are in a period of 'sleep training' or not. Sorry, I don't mean to be patronising, and you come across as quite angry in your posts, but I just thought I would reply with my take on your belief that sleep training doesn't work because you have to keep doing it over and over.

FWIW, my DTs have never woken each other with their crying, even now they are in the same room. I think they must be used to it

[Abubu]

Hi,

I haven't read the vast majority of posts as I don't have enough days so don't know what if anything controversial has been said in the meantime...

however based on the OPs question..

no it is certainly not unreasonable to expect you and your wife to do some sleep training.

Waking up for to hours a night and having to cuddle a baby back to sleep is completely unmanageable and unnecessary.

I really feel for you. I also have twins coming up to 2.5 years and am pregnant with number 3.

We gave up their 10pm feed when they were about 10 months, we then did several months of fetching a dummy for them when they woke up, which wasn't great but in terms of sleep disturbance minor compared to having to do a feed / rocking back to sleep.

Nowadays they only wake up if they are feeling unwell and in this situation we allow them to sleep in the bed with us for that night.

I wish you good luck. Just because you haven't done it yet it doesnt mean its too late.

Personally as a mother of twins I can't quite imagine why your wife doesn't want to try to get them into a better sleep routine. I would have gone mental by now....

[neenz]

Agree with you about . I don't get it.

I know different babies will respond differently to sleep training - all the babies on my PN thread have been through it and they all sleep differently. So yes it is a lot to do with the baby as well.

But this thread started because the OP's wife wouldn't entertain any sleep training, all people are saying is sleep training can work especially when you have got to the end of your tether as the OP had.

Whooshspice said 'everyone who has a child who sleeps through the night is certain it is entirely to do with their superior parenting rather than them just having children who happen to be better sleepers'.

No it is nothing to do with superior parenting, just successful sleep training. No one has said it works for every baby, it doesn't, and yes some babies will be more susceptible than others.

Juule, I know lots of mums of twins and the 'chatting to each other' stage doesn't always happen. And my DTs weren't even in the same room as each other until a few weeks ago but still used to play in the cots on waking (although they are better at it now they have someone to talk to ).

[Undercovamutha]

'obviously you are doing something wrong because on this thread everyone who has a child who sleeps through the night is certain it is entirely to do with their superior parenting rather than them just having children who happen to be better sleepers.'
Thought I'd acknowledge your post whooshspicemonster!
I suppose its funny how we can perceive the same thread differently, as I have taken a number of posters as meaning that if your child DOES sleep through the night you must be some kind of Gina Ford worshipper! I really do think a lot of it has been luck on my part, but sleeping is only a very small part of it, and I know some parents who have a nightmare with their child not sleeping, but that same child plays nicely all day and hardly ever has tantrums (seomthing I dream of!).
The only time I ever feel like sticking my nose in is when people say that they haven't got the energy to deal with a certain issue (especially sleep). I can UNDERSTAND that, but I think it leads to disaster. I personally don't agree with leaving your child to scream for ages, but I do believe in perservering. When my DD started getting up in the night when she went into her own bed, we put her back to bed sometimes 10 - 20 times a night for about a week (even though we also had a newborn to look after) and now she sleeps fine. Maybe thats luck, I don't know!

[4madboys]

that should have been a BIT big, you need an edit facility

[4madboys]

thankyou

i have been a member of mumsnet for ages, but dont post all that often, i find it a big big.

but i have seen this thread over the last few days and i really hate the presumption that if you have a child who is a poor sleeper its because you are doing something wrong they really are all different and yes its hard and its tiring but its part of being a parent.

and i dont agree that you cant moan about it, ffs we all moan about some things. i had a discussion with my psych (had pnp after no 4 ) and i said i felt bad for moaning and also that my mum gives me the 'you made your bed you lie in it' speel.

and he said thats rubbish, we can all moan about things, it doenst mean that we want to do things differently, but its ok NOT to like things sometimes and its good to get it out, it actually helps you to have a moan, feel better and then you can cope with the next night of broken sleep

the thing to remember is that they are only little once and it doesnt last forever, they WILL grow out of it, they may need some encouragement, ie with ds2 and ds3 lots of back rubbing and patting and us sleeping in their bed sometimes, NO leaving them to cry.

but its natural, we have all the sympathy in the world for insomniac adults, why so hard on little children?

and wtf is this face for?

[scattyspice]

[juuule]

Now that's a post I can relate to, 4madboys.

[4madboys]

well i have four boys, the eldest three were not good sleepers at all.

ds1 was terrible he only started to get better once he was 3yrs old, nothing we did made any diff, we tried cc but he would just scream until he was sick and it was upsetting for all of us

when ds2 came along we opted for co sleeping and it is sooooo much better for all of us, did the same with ds3 and at almost 5 and 7 yrs they occasionally come in with us still now which is fine.

ds4 a diff fish altogether, has been a good sleeper from word go, tho he is back in bed with us at the mo as he has a cold, he starts of in his little toddler bed at the end of our bed

we did nothing different we planned on co sleeping and didnt even have a cot, so he was in with us but it was obvious that he didnt need to be, so we got a toddler bed this summer. he also wakes happy and will lie awake in bed chatting to himself and sucking his thumb for ages when he wakes, i get up and he stays asleep, i often have to wake him so i can take the elder three to school.

but its nothing i did, he is just him, he likes bed, will put himself to bed and sleeps well at night and has a big two hour nap during the day.

we are hoping to have no 5 next year and whilst i would love it if they sleep as well as ds4 i am under NO illusions that what we do will make a huge difference, some children can self settle, but many cant and i dont believe in leaving them to cry.