Am I being unreasonable .. about sleep

[TotsDaddy]

We have twins, now aged 2y10m and a little girl aged 11m.
The twins didn't sleep through the night until they were a year old, both had a 10pm and 4am feed. The 10pm feed continued untill they were over 2, I was exhausted. At the time my wife declared that she didn't believe in sleep training techniques, and there was nothing we could do except grin and bear it. It was if fact so bad, that that the constant waking damaged my eyesight ( No I'm serious, the consultant said, even before I mentioned our situation, "This sort of damage to the cornea is caused by stress and continued sudden waking")

When we had the little girl I hoped we could do better. She is now almost 1, and has been cuddled/fed to sleep on a regular basis. Again any form of sleep training has been rejected outright. She still feeds at 10pm and 5am, and for the last week has spent 2am until 4am awake while been cuddled back to sleep.

I'm told that this is all just normal and if I really asked people in private they would admit it was quite typical.

So.. am I being unreasonable about sleep?

[neenz]

Lenin, sorry for going right back to yesterday evening, not caught up with the whole chat yet, but you said...

'But that's the thing neenz, sometimes I just want to moan, as anyone does, without getting advice.'

That's the thing I don't understand - if you are moaning then it seems you are not happy about the situation. I never moan because my kids sleep all night - I have nothing to moan about. So when I go to playgroup and mums come in looking exhausted and say 'Oh we were up all night AGAIN' (with toddlers btw not babies) I think 'well you only have yourself to blame' ( I never actually say that of course but I do think 'well if you didn't go in and cuddle/feed/play with them in the night they wouldn't wake up so much')

btw if you were my friend and had made it clear that you wanted to parent that way I would not suggest CC (although I probably would think you were mad ). I keep my mouth shut (most of the time) with my SIL, because I know her view is that she will never leave her DS to cry. I think she is nurturing a spoilt child who thinks he will always get his own way but time will tell whether I am correct

[juuule]

"I think 'well you only have yourself to blame' "

Oh dear. And you know their family circumstances? You know they definitely haven't tried your way of sleep training and maybe it failed? At the least you don't sound very supportive of their choice and seem quite 'well you've made your bed....' type of attitude. If they think that their way is the best for their baby then why look down on them as if it's their own fault?
Do you really think that people go into toddlers bedrooms and get them up to play/cuddle/whatever in the middle of the night if they didn't need to?

Neenz, if your profile is correct your children are only 18m old. You sound similar to me many years ago. Lots of things I thought were black and white came back to bite me Just a word of caution
As someone else on this thread has said, babies who sleep early on can be insomniacs at around 3-4y. Yours hopefully won't be. But you just never know

[Undercovamutha]

I think there is a big difference between someone who is willing (and even happy it seems in Starlights case!) to have broken nights, rather than sleep training. And someone who doesn't agreewith or has no energy for sleep training, but is miserable and constantly tired due to sleepless nights.

I don't THINK I have ever really done sleep training, I have always just been of the mind that (after the newborn stage) you need to start how you mean to go on. I don't think its right to feed a 9mo to sleep and then expect them to suddenly magickly manage to know how to get themselves to sleep when they are 12mo for example. I have tried to be consistent and it has worked. I thought this was my own good luck when I just had one DC, but now I have 2 very good self-settlers, and I have friends who are experiencing exactly the same problems with 2nd and 3rd DCs that they had with DC1, I am starting to wonder.

To my mind (and it may seem callous) but no pain no gain. My friend has her 2 DDs (7 + 9yo!) still coming into her bed EVERY night. And NO she is not happy with it, and her DH is REALLY not happy with it. She always looks shattered and fed up, and often goes to sleep in her childrens beds in the middle of the night cos she can't face having to move them. And she has NEVER tried to do anything about it cos she says she is too tired to.

[neenz]

Juule, you're right and I often think the same (that my beliefs might come back to bite me ). And yes sometimes I think I am not a very nice friend/SIL because I am very impatient and get frustrated when people make such hard work of it. That is my problem tho. Starlight in a previous thread many moons ago accused me of being a control freak and I'm afraid she was spot on . But that's just me. MN does help/encourage me to control my control freakiness tho

FWIW my DTs often don't sleep 7-7, last night my DD was put to bed at 7 but didn't go to sleep till nearly 9. She cried for a bit but then I opened her bedroom door and put the landing light on and she just chatted and sang to her teddies before eventually falling asleep. When they wake in the morning they do the same (chat/sing to each other), they will stay in their cots for an hour or so quite happily after waking up. I know that is a result of my sleep-training so I obviously think it is great.

Lenin was saying that she felt her AP-type parenting was in a minority and that she can't really talk about it, but i often feel the same because my strict Gina Ford-type parenting is not that popular either. I always find myself making excuses saying 'Well I've got twins so I have had to be quite tough' cos I think people might judge me and think I am cruel.

But it's nothing to do with having twins, I will do the same with all my subsequent children .

[juuule]

Neenz you've just reminded me of something a friend with twins told me. She said it was extremely hard work the first few months but then got easier once the twins were older as they played and gurgled with each other rather than crying as soon as they woke. Perhaps it's your sleep training that worked or maybe your twins would have been okay as they have each other unlike a singleton. Who knows.
Although I must say that once some of my younger children got to toddler stage they would stay with their siblings and not disturb us in the mornings. Unless sibling didn't want disturbing in which case they told them to go away and they'd come to us anyway.
Must say that some of mine have chatted to themselves in their cots without any sleep training. Just what they settled into.
It sounds as though you and your family are happy so that's good.

[scattyspice]

What nonsense. DS didn't sleep through until 3.5 yrs, dd is 4.5yrs and still wakes everynight (usually 4am). We tried every sleep training 'technique'. Nothing worked for any length of time. We just live with it.

We haven't gone blind.

[whooshspicemonster]

No, no, no scattyspice - obviously you are doing something wrong because on this thread everyone who has a child who sleeps through the night is certain it is entirely to do with their superior parenting rather than them just having children who happen to be better sleepers.

You probably won't even get an acknowledgement of your post - I've been ignored for saying similar about 20 times on this thread.

[4madboys]

well i have four boys, the eldest three were not good sleepers at all.

ds1 was terrible he only started to get better once he was 3yrs old, nothing we did made any diff, we tried cc but he would just scream until he was sick and it was upsetting for all of us

when ds2 came along we opted for co sleeping and it is sooooo much better for all of us, did the same with ds3 and at almost 5 and 7 yrs they occasionally come in with us still now which is fine.

ds4 a diff fish altogether, has been a good sleeper from word go, tho he is back in bed with us at the mo as he has a cold, he starts of in his little toddler bed at the end of our bed

we did nothing different we planned on co sleeping and didnt even have a cot, so he was in with us but it was obvious that he didnt need to be, so we got a toddler bed this summer. he also wakes happy and will lie awake in bed chatting to himself and sucking his thumb for ages when he wakes, i get up and he stays asleep, i often have to wake him so i can take the elder three to school.

but its nothing i did, he is just him, he likes bed, will put himself to bed and sleeps well at night and has a big two hour nap during the day.

we are hoping to have no 5 next year and whilst i would love it if they sleep as well as ds4 i am under NO illusions that what we do will make a huge difference, some children can self settle, but many cant and i dont believe in leaving them to cry.

[juuule]

Now that's a post I can relate to, 4madboys.

[scattyspice]

[4madboys]

thankyou

i have been a member of mumsnet for ages, but dont post all that often, i find it a big big.

but i have seen this thread over the last few days and i really hate the presumption that if you have a child who is a poor sleeper its because you are doing something wrong they really are all different and yes its hard and its tiring but its part of being a parent.

and i dont agree that you cant moan about it, ffs we all moan about some things. i had a discussion with my psych (had pnp after no 4 ) and i said i felt bad for moaning and also that my mum gives me the 'you made your bed you lie in it' speel.

and he said thats rubbish, we can all moan about things, it doenst mean that we want to do things differently, but its ok NOT to like things sometimes and its good to get it out, it actually helps you to have a moan, feel better and then you can cope with the next night of broken sleep

the thing to remember is that they are only little once and it doesnt last forever, they WILL grow out of it, they may need some encouragement, ie with ds2 and ds3 lots of back rubbing and patting and us sleeping in their bed sometimes, NO leaving them to cry.

but its natural, we have all the sympathy in the world for insomniac adults, why so hard on little children?

and wtf is this face for?

[4madboys]

that should have been a BIT big, you need an edit facility

[Undercovamutha]

'obviously you are doing something wrong because on this thread everyone who has a child who sleeps through the night is certain it is entirely to do with their superior parenting rather than them just having children who happen to be better sleepers.'
Thought I'd acknowledge your post whooshspicemonster!
I suppose its funny how we can perceive the same thread differently, as I have taken a number of posters as meaning that if your child DOES sleep through the night you must be some kind of Gina Ford worshipper! I really do think a lot of it has been luck on my part, but sleeping is only a very small part of it, and I know some parents who have a nightmare with their child not sleeping, but that same child plays nicely all day and hardly ever has tantrums (seomthing I dream of!).
The only time I ever feel like sticking my nose in is when people say that they haven't got the energy to deal with a certain issue (especially sleep). I can UNDERSTAND that, but I think it leads to disaster. I personally don't agree with leaving your child to scream for ages, but I do believe in perservering. When my DD started getting up in the night when she went into her own bed, we put her back to bed sometimes 10 - 20 times a night for about a week (even though we also had a newborn to look after) and now she sleeps fine. Maybe thats luck, I don't know!

[neenz]

Agree with you about . I don't get it.

I know different babies will respond differently to sleep training - all the babies on my PN thread have been through it and they all sleep differently. So yes it is a lot to do with the baby as well.

But this thread started because the OP's wife wouldn't entertain any sleep training, all people are saying is sleep training can work especially when you have got to the end of your tether as the OP had.

Whooshspice said 'everyone who has a child who sleeps through the night is certain it is entirely to do with their superior parenting rather than them just having children who happen to be better sleepers'.

No it is nothing to do with superior parenting, just successful sleep training. No one has said it works for every baby, it doesn't, and yes some babies will be more susceptible than others.

Juule, I know lots of mums of twins and the 'chatting to each other' stage doesn't always happen. And my DTs weren't even in the same room as each other until a few weeks ago but still used to play in the cots on waking (although they are better at it now they have someone to talk to ).

[Abubu]

Hi,

I haven't read the vast majority of posts as I don't have enough days so don't know what if anything controversial has been said in the meantime...

however based on the OPs question..

no it is certainly not unreasonable to expect you and your wife to do some sleep training.

Waking up for to hours a night and having to cuddle a baby back to sleep is completely unmanageable and unnecessary.

I really feel for you. I also have twins coming up to 2.5 years and am pregnant with number 3.

We gave up their 10pm feed when they were about 10 months, we then did several months of fetching a dummy for them when they woke up, which wasn't great but in terms of sleep disturbance minor compared to having to do a feed / rocking back to sleep.

Nowadays they only wake up if they are feeling unwell and in this situation we allow them to sleep in the bed with us for that night.

I wish you good luck. Just because you haven't done it yet it doesnt mean its too late.

Personally as a mother of twins I can't quite imagine why your wife doesn't want to try to get them into a better sleep routine. I would have gone mental by now....

[neenz]

Whooshspice, you posted yesterday that you sleep train, then he has a developmental leap and it all goes to pot, so you have to do sleep training all over again just weeks later.

How old is your DS? When the DTs were 8mo I did sleep training successfully, but like your DS a few weeks later they started to wake again and I reverted to feeding them to sleep again (easy option), until a few weeks later when they were waking every night again (sometimes twice), and I had to do sleep training (again). This happened a few times before I realised that I had to stop reverting to the 'bad' habits when the sleep started to go wrong.

Now if they wake in the night, I go in, shush them or pick them up for a quick cuddle, put them back in the cot, Calpol if necessary (if teething or have a cold, which is usually the problem) and then left to cry. Within five minutes they are usually asleep again, even though they will be screaming their heads off when I first leave the room.

This is what my HV suggested btw.

I think perhaps if your DS is coming into your bed when his sleep goes wrong then it is going to make it harder for you to 'break' that habit again, therefore forcing you to do sleep training again. You need to be consistent in what you do when they wake, whether you are in a period of 'sleep training' or not. Sorry, I don't mean to be patronising, and you come across as quite angry in your posts, but I just thought I would reply with my take on your belief that sleep training doesn't work because you have to keep doing it over and over.

FWIW, my DTs have never woken each other with their crying, even now they are in the same room. I think they must be used to it

[juuule]

Neenz, I do think there's an element of luck with your twins. Leaving them screaming their heads off when you know they will settle in 5mins is different to leaving them screaming and knowing they won't settle at all.

[whooshspicemonster]

neenz - my DS is nearly 3. He has never played happily in his cot. He screams, without fail, every single time he wakes up. Even in the morning.

Last time I tried leaving him to cry (and it wasn't even for very long) him he gave himself a nosebleed

If your children have learned to self settle, then brilliant. But please have the grace to acknowledge that not all children are the same

undercovermutha - LOL - isn't it funny how we only see the most polarised bits of the argument

[Undercovamutha]

whooshspicemonster - its the joy of MN!

[neenz]

Juule, but if you never leave them screaming their heads off, how do you know that they won't settle? I only know because I have tried it.

Whoosh, I have said many times that it doesn't work for all children, it is you who seems to be saying that sleep training doesn't work because you have to keep doing it over and over. I was just pointing out that if you did keep doing it instead of taking him into your bed or giving him milk then perhaps you wouldn't need to do it over and over.

[juuule]

Neenz as I've said earlier in the thread I have left my eldest screaming. He kept on screaming..and snotting...and retching.

I've left a couple of the others shouting for me knowing they would settle within a couple of minutes.

[whooshspicemonster]

neenz - believe me I have done it over and over and over again. And it has worked. For a time

You're really not listening are you?

I have left him to scream for far longer than 5 minutes, believe me. But I am not prepared to leave him now he's older and gets even more upset.

Would you really leave your child crying if it had given them a nosebleed and think that was okay? Really?

[whooshspicemonster]

You are totally contradicting yourself:

'it doesn't work for all children' - great, good, we're agreed on that.

But then you go on to say: 'I was just pointing out that if you did keep doing it instead of taking him into your bed or giving him milk then perhaps you wouldn't need to do it over and over.'

I haven't tried it one night and then given up which is what that sentence seems to suggest. I've done it for nights on end, believe me. And eventually it has worked. But it only ever lasts a few months and then we're back to square one. But unlike your children, he doesn't cry for 5 minutes and then go to sleep.

It is usually 2 hours of solid crying before he falls asleep on the first night. Believe me, when you have disrupted your sleep as many times as I have to sleep train and it only works for a short period of time, eventually you decide to cut your losses and work with your child, rather than against them.

But that doesn't mean I don't dearly wish I didn't get disturbed every night. But, barring totally ignoring him every single time he cries in the night for ever, I can't see how that's going to happen.

[Undercovamutha]

whooshspicemonster - I truly feel for you - I would hate to be in that situation.

I only hope that your DS is a little angel for you during the day !

My DD is 3 also, and as I said has always been brilliant with sleeping and eating - but oh the drama and the tantrums. Its like being on a rollercoaster. If I wasn't getting a decent nights sleep, someone would probably end up locked under the stairs, and it would probably be me !

[whooshspicemonster]

How funny undercovermutha - he is a very random eater (some days loads, some days virtually nothing). But other than that, he is an absolute joy during the day. He's funny and sweet and cuddly and kind and everyone loves him. He does have the very occasional tantrum but he's easily distracted.

Just as well really or I'd have put him out by the bins otherwise