Am I being unreasonable .. about sleep

[TotsDaddy]

We have twins, now aged 2y10m and a little girl aged 11m.
The twins didn't sleep through the night until they were a year old, both had a 10pm and 4am feed. The 10pm feed continued untill they were over 2, I was exhausted. At the time my wife declared that she didn't believe in sleep training techniques, and there was nothing we could do except grin and bear it. It was if fact so bad, that that the constant waking damaged my eyesight ( No I'm serious, the consultant said, even before I mentioned our situation, "This sort of damage to the cornea is caused by stress and continued sudden waking")

When we had the little girl I hoped we could do better. She is now almost 1, and has been cuddled/fed to sleep on a regular basis. Again any form of sleep training has been rejected outright. She still feeds at 10pm and 5am, and for the last week has spent 2am until 4am awake while been cuddled back to sleep.

I'm told that this is all just normal and if I really asked people in private they would admit it was quite typical.

So.. am I being unreasonable about sleep?

starlightMcKenzie I agree wholeheartedly.

and to answer a previous q - forget who it was by - YES victorians co-slept plenty - and yes the babies were cuddled and breastfed in the night too....(and through history prior to this too).

If the people wondering which "traditional" society's were being referred to - if it was regarding the continuum concept book - if you had read the book you would know.
It is not a lifestyle instruction manual either - it's just an interesting read (IMHO)that can explain some reasons for night waking to the extent where the infant is crying. It isn't just about babies and crying either.

Okay I'm going to get totally slammed now as everyone has said 'normal, deal with it' but I think IMO that you ANBU and that you (and wife) could definitely improve this.

I have probably been lucky, but like Stigaloid, I have not rocked or fed or cuddled to sleep as such. I always make sure the main things are covered 1)temperature, 2)fed, 3)should be tired (4, for little ones - winded), then comfort and cuddle so they are happy and put down. Any crying or upset after that I associate with just wanting the cuddling to continue and as much as I would love to cuddle my children without fatigue 24-7 unfortunately when there are chores/work/social lives etc that occupy the daytime hours it is just not possible for me to function (without extreme bad temper) without minimum of 4-6hours sleep (before children this was 8-10!).

My 4 mth old DD has been sleeping through since 12 weeks (interrupted by illness in last two weeks) and my 2.5yr old DS did more or less the same. Other than illness when all rule books go out the window DH and I tend to stick to the following:

• when put to bed never take from room, rarely take out of bed.
• never take to our bed (even in early hours - our 2.5yr old actally calls in morning to say - can I get up now?- which means if he wakes early and we say no, he is used to going back to sleep as it is that or stay in bed bored til getting up time)

It helps that we have a bedtime/bath/book routine and that they like their rooms (which they've been in since young). They both happily go down for naps and well rested for lots of fun in the day.

Perhaps mine just like sleep?... but there have been challenges along the way, we've just taken a no fuss no faff line and kept replacing them in bed so I think it's more that they are just both used to their own rooms/beds and the expectation to stay there.

I know each child is different and what works for one doesn't work for another but perhaps there is something you can do to improve things for you all...

Hope this helps and doesn't sound too strict. I can only imagine how knackered you and DW must be.

i understand the flippancy but since sex and the marital bed is plays a huge part in why some parents want the child out of the marital bed and out of the bedroom, I used it as a chance to address that point. it always comes up eventually by someone as Maria did earlier.

I think the problem driving the OPs thread is not necessarily the child's sleep pattern but the reluctance to commit to either sleep training or cosleeping with his (dear) wife.

In my house if you do the bulk of the donkey work you get to call the shots. DH therefore got dragged along into the cosleeping malarky like this . Now he loves sleeping with all 3 of his girls even if he ends up with a foot in his ear from time to time. I doubt now that he'd have it any other way. Big soft hard ex-Royal Marine that he is.

Starlight, I respect your wishes to feed your LOs in the night and never use sleep training, the problem I have is you seem to think you have all the answers and everyone else is doing it wrong. But what works for you won't work for everyone.

When a mother has gone back to work when the baby is 9mo it is not easy for that mother to just sleep whenever the babies sleep which seems to be what you are suggesting.

Humans are awake during the day and sleep at night. There is nothing wrong with encouraging a child to sleep 7pm till 7am using sleep training techniques if necessary. That is just what humans do. I agree it is a gift to teach a child how to self-settle.

I would not be able to cope in the daytime looking after my twins if I didn't get that break from 7-7 and a good night's sleep. Also the fact that they have had a good night's sleep means they are happier and more content and therefore easier to look after.

So nothing will convince me that there is a 'better way', that I should somehow change my lifestyle so that my kids sleep worse, never cry, get fed through the night and get overtired. All the while making me more exhausted too.

HVs recommend sleep training, if it was that bad for babies I don't think government agenices would be suggesting it.

I agree that the OP should use sleep training now to knock this night waking on the head - it is only habit and they baby can be easily taught to get back to sleep on its own.

Neenz you are guilty of what you are accusing Starlight of.

"the problem I have is you seem to think you have all the answers and everyone else is doing it wrong. But what works for you won't work for everyone."

Your way worked for you, it doesn't work for everyone. Fwiw, I was back at work when dc1 was 6m old. Would have loved to have him sleep through and would have been overjoyed if all it took was 3 nights of slight whingey crying before settling himself off.

I would disagree that babies don't need taught to sleep. Getting off to sleep and getting back to sleep are things that can need taught as there is a nack to them and there are loads of adults who have never mastered the art of getting to sleep and staying asleep. I think teaching your older baby to ssleep is an important part of parenting.
Initially babies tend to get fed to sleep, but they can come to associate being fed with sleep which can be detrimental to their sleep pattern as they get older and no longer need fed in the middle of the night.
Giving children a bedtime routine and teaching them to fall asleep themselves without milk, dummies, lights, music is important, as is teaching them to settle themselves if they half wake during the night so they don't fully wake thinking they need a feed/ cuddle to get back to sleep.

So how do you teach a child to self-settle?

starlight - You have completely sidestepped my question. I have not asked if you think it's "awful" to take dummy from baby or "awful" to sleep train. I asked how exactly you think it is "damaging".

And where is your "peer-reviewed research" that says so?

I found I was crippled, getting up 5-7 times a night, cuddling her off to sleep, sitting in the room for hours in the evening before falling exhausted into bed, then having to get up, start the day, drive to work (that was stupid but unfortunately no real choice as public transport would mean an extra 1.5 hours to my working day and even less time to cook, clean, settle children) and function at work for a whole day. I honestly don't think I could have lasted any longer without sleep training. My older son was also getting seriously sleep deprived and miserable because his sister was keeping him awake late and waking him through the night, and Husband was getting tense and irritable because he was also tired and not getting to spend any time with his wife who was grumpy and irritable too.

I honestly think that every aspect of my life has changed for the better since I sleep trained her. She is an absolute joy now, full of energy, hugs, smiles, talking like nothing else, full of curiosity about everything. I'm totally in love with her and look forward to being with her instead of dreading every night. I'm looking for signs of damage to her but I really can't see any.

I honestly can't see how it would be better for the family to let her continue along the non-self-settling route but instead to change our lifesytles. We'd lose the house if I didn't work or lost my job, and I don't think that stress would be good for anyone. There were some real tensions between me and husband that have vanished since we have time to just converse, let alone have sex. We laugh with each other in the evening now. Would it be better for our marriage to have broken up over it? We were really struggling with each others exhaustion. Son had to start school in September; would it have been better for him to go through this while he also couldn't get a decent night's sleep?

I'm glad that not everyone has to sleep train, but I'm fairly confident that those that do are not being unnecessarily cruel but are doing what needs to be done to allow their whole family to function happily.

Juule you teach a child to self-settle by not feeding, rocking or cuddling it to sleep. A baby who gets itself to sleep (and back to sleep) with continued reasurance (eg pick-up/put down or shushing) can and will self-settle.

You say you wish it was as easy as 3 nights of slight whingy crying, well it is often not as easy as that and no one said it was. Sometimes it can take an hour of more of crying (on the first night anyway).

What a whole hour, neenz?

I could have coped with that over 3 days.

We had hours. We had a child who would eventually give up, fall asleep and be wide awake and ready for the next round half an hour later.

No feeding, no cuddling or rocking to sleep?
Mine did self-settle eventually without with-holding stuff. And it was so much easier with the later children once we accepted that that's the way some children are and worked around it. Much better than the fight we had with our first child.

Each to their own, I suppose.

Generally agreeing with totally on this.
Interested in the big bed thing- dd1 (2.1) wants a big bed for xmas.

Also for all those people who think crying is damaging what happens if they ask for chocolate buttons for breakfast/wear wellies to bed/ unstrap themselves from car seat etc etc. Do you give in and let them do whatever and never teach them that sometimes 'No' is the answer? Or do your children just never cry? Am intrigued..

Foxy we have a lodger so our bed is the only place for sex! Unless we let him join in..

lol girlsyearapart

OK juule, an hour or more, it can be hours and hours, especially if the child is older. It is not nice, but as girlsyearapart says, they do cry when they don't like something, and of course if they have been fed, rocked or cuddled to sleep for months or years they are not going to like it if you do cc. But they get used to it (in three days ).

I don't think my way is the right way or the only way, each to their own as you say, but I do think that night waking in a baby over 6 months old is not something you just have to put up with. The OP asked if he was BU, IMO he is NBU to think an 11mo should/could sleep through the night.

Girls, from what I know about unconditional parenting, you don't tell children off, you don't punish or reward, you 'support' the child to help them behave in the right way in the first place.

That is how I understand it anyway.

It is not for me, I think rewarding good behaviour is common sense and I think time out can be a very useful tool, but some people think if you use punishment/reward methods your kids will think you will only love them if they behave.

It's strange, I knew my parents loved me because they told me all the time.

I've always taught babies from 4-6 months to self soothe as it's way easier and quicker at that age than when they are older, more cogniscent (sp?) and more verbal/vocal! The first night I cuddle and kiss, then put down and leave the room. More often than not baby will go to sleep then wake an hour later when they realize they've just been duped into going to sleep without the bottle or being held, and they will protest. Then I go in, pat and shush, and then leave the room again once they are quiet but not asleep. they might cry a bit more but at this stage they are tired and after 10-15 minutes of on off whinging will find their thumb/dummy and drop off. Any night wakings are then basically ignored unless baby is hugely distressed. Again, in the 12 years I've been doing this, most babies will protest loudly at first but soon calm down enough to just whimper and chat to themselves until they fall asleep again. My number 1 piece of advice is if you are going to sleep train then FOLLOW IT THROUGH!!!! Don't start going in after ignoring as it will only confuse your baby and they will cry more when you do eventually leave! Either bite the bullet or don't bother.

Nights 1-3 are tough and you will have to listen to baby cry on and off. Night 4 is as if a light bulb goes off in your baby's brain: they might wake, they might protest a little, but they will go back to sleep on their own and you will wake up at a civilized hour and stare in disbelief at the clock as your baby has slept through and not needd you during the night

Seriously, this does work if you follow through in the aim of getting them to self soothe. Let them wake and chat and protest, they need to know how to deal with this normal and natural occurrence themselves. You're doing them the hugest favour by givingthem the chance to learn this important skill. It's easier done from 4-6 months than any time after that, and I highly recommend taking a week and doing it. Of course there will be hiccups and regressions afterwards, but self soothing is like riding a bike: once your baby knows how to do it she will cope with any future sleep disturbances so much better. You are not neglecting your baby or harming her by doing this. It's not cruel. It's a gift that everyone in the house will appreciate as time goes on!

"from what I know about unconditional parenting, you don't tell children off,"

Errm, yes you do.

Mananny - "and then leave the room again once they are quiet but not asleep."

What do you do if they set off bawling again once you stop pat/shushing? So that you never actually get to leave the room unless you walk out on them screaming and getting more and more worked up the longer you are out?

Starlight we have very different parenting styles and neither way is 'right', it's just 'right' for our DCs.

My DS would not respond well to your parenting- he likes boundaries, he responded perfectly to 'sleep training' and he certainly won't be wandering round with a dummy in his mouth at 3 year old.

As I said, he refused a dummy until 10 mo when he picked the habit up off his cousins of the same age. However, I would have been happy for him to have one earlier if that's what he'd wanted, as apparently it reduces the risk of cot death. I can just wean him off it. He's a very adaptable child.

As girlsyearapart said, what if your child pushed boundaries in other areas of life : 'what happens if they ask for chocolate buttons for breakfast/wear wellies to bed/ unstrap themselves from car seat etc etc. Do you give in and let them do whatever and never teach them that sometimes 'No' is the answer?'

DCs can't just do whatever they want, they are children and we are adults so we set the boundaries, not them- boundaries which are in their best interests and promote safety and happiness.

My DS is the happiest little boy and people always comment on it, so our way has worked for him. He's not badly done to.

FWIW I also disagree with cosleeping. My view is that it is dangerous (and not recommended), it doesn't do anything good for relationships between DH-DW and it means then causing the child greater distress at a later age by trying to get them in their own bedroom. As presumably they don't sleep with mum and dad until they're 18? It seems to be more for the parent's needs than the child's.

But then again, every child is different, which i can accept.

Juuule - re the settling, walking out bit. They know you love them and if you have to walk away while they get increasing incensed then (as long as not hungry or in pain) they WILL settle and calm down. Honestly with DS I never had to leave him for more than 5 mins before he settled but with DD we had a dummy issue (she played with it at 10 weeks- seriously!) and kept losing it as she could take it out with her hands but would throw it and we decided to go cold turkey. I probably shouldn't say this, but I am sure other parents will have experienced the same, it took 45 mins of screaming before she fell asleep from fatigue, then woke half an hour later and screamed for another 45 mins. As I knew she was safe and well just cross, both times I left her in cot and shusshed as infrequently as possible. That was day 1. As someone else said above, it got less and less each time and some point on day 2 or 3 she found thumb and has since learnt to settle herself which is how we have had her sleeping through since 12 weeks.

I would recommend it a thousand times. It is hard to leave your child crying but it is worth it for all in the long run.

oh and co sleeping is the main cause of our friends having both 4 yr old and 2yr old with a parent each in seperate beds every night to the disruption of social evenings (parents often have to go to bed to get child to bed) and our friends not having had a night in same bed on own for 4yrs. Doesn't sound like my cup of tea.

Juule, it's tough leaving the room if baby is still crying/screaming/shrieking but to be honest if your presence is only tormenting them further (in that they can see/hear you but you are not picking them up) then I would advise pat and shush and then leave. I would not leave a very distressed baby to scream, pick them up and calm them down then put down, pat and shush and then leave. At some point if you are training your baby to self soothe they HAVE to be allowed to be upset a bit in order to learn how to wind themselves down. Some babies I've woked with cry and increase tension rather than cry and then pipe down, this is hard to deal with as you obviously don't want a screaming ball of fury on your hands. So I would then advise calming them down to the point they are fairly calm, then lay them down, pat and shush, and leave even if they do start drying again. If they turn into a ball of fury again it's just a case of rinse and repeat, they will learn each time how to calm themselves a little more each time, if you wait a little longer each time. Some babies are so ingrained in their habits and behaviours that it really does take a few nights to reprogramme them and let them figure out they are capable of self soothing. If your baby is just crying to be picked up and there is nothing else wrong with them, say goodnight, pat and shush and leave them to it. A tired baby has no other way to tell you she is knackered, peed off, and doesn't like the new rules other than to have a bloody good wail. It won't hurt her. If she relies on you to hold or feed her to sleep every night she will want that exact same treatment every time she wakes in the night as she won't be able to get herself back to sleep. So if you want her to be able to get herself back to sleep you have to do the exact same thing every time (with onbious exceptions like illness) so that her habit becomes "Oh it's dark out, and I'm awake, I'll have a wee chat and maybe a shout then I will nod off again"

Some babies are faster learners than others, some need a bit more of a time and effort investment into learning how to self soothe, but every single baby is capable of it if given the opportunity. If you have a baby who is an hourly waker and wailer it might take a specialist sleep centre. But even those hard nuts can be cracked! Any effort put in early is so much easier in the long run.

Another good book is Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Children by Marc Weissbluth. It's pretty simple, common sense and easy to follow. I follow a lot of what he says with all the baby's I work with because it works. And if you start later in your child's life he lays out plans for that too, which means any child can be taught and encouraged to self soothe and be well rested. Highly recommend giving it a read.

I'm really impressed by how everyone is being so polite & nice on this thread so far (because personally I'm starting to get pissed off). First of all, I'm pissed off at the idea that those of us who might like to have our bed to ourselves, not with a toddler between us, are somehow being puritanical. Yeah right, I can just imagine myself nipping to the bathroom or kitchen counter to have sex with a toddler in the bed (would I not be worried btw the the toddler would fall off while I'm having wild sex in the kitchen)? And having all this sex in other rooms while being sleep deprived for months or years. I take my hat off to you girls. Personally when I was that sleep deprived, as I was for 9 months, all I felt like doing was crying, whingeing, shouting etc. The only patience / happiness I could manage on that little sleep went to my baby. The rest of my life was just in shambles. But that's just me, a 'weak' or 'prescriptive' (as someone else said) mother. I'm also terribly pissed off by the hugely offensive idea that all our babies & children, well looked after, well loved & cuddled all day long (and all night when they need it!) are somehow damaged for life because of going through a difficulty at some point to change their sleep habits. This suggestions seriously pisses me off. It's as if you're all out to get the price to the best mum competition.

Can I just tell you something? I also- like you- could not bear listening to my DS cry. I cried more than he did when we did the sleep training. I comforted him through the sleep training (involving taking aways his dummy) as much as I could- with cuddles, with milk, with my voice. You could tell he was very shocked / surprised that his dummy wasn't there. He didn't like the change (no-one likes change). After the first 2 nights, we saw a huge difference. In 4 nights it was all done. Since then he's been sleeping 12 hours every night. So I repeat. He went from waking every 1-2 hours to sleeping 12 hours every night. He's the happiest, sweetest boy ever, he's 15 months, gives his mum & dad cuddles every day, rubs his nose to ours. He's a joy. How dare you suggest our little boy is damaged!

(As you can tell I am pissed off...third time I've said this).

Maria I love you you sound like some of the parents I have worked with who got so much criticism from their friends for hiring me to help sleep train their babies!!!!

Sleep training/teaching works. And it's not cruel or damaging.

I think my eldest must have been one of those hard nuts.

However, I didn't view him as a nut to be cracked. He was my baby and he was very distressed. I couldn't have done what's been described long term. And even when trying it for a few hours over a couple of nights it just didn't feel right. Maybe I wasn't tough enough but after my experiences with subsequent children I'm still sorry that I put him through aa much as we did. It wasn't necessary and a lot of upset could have been avoided.