Am I being unreasonable .. about sleep

[TotsDaddy]

We have twins, now aged 2y10m and a little girl aged 11m.
The twins didn't sleep through the night until they were a year old, both had a 10pm and 4am feed. The 10pm feed continued untill they were over 2, I was exhausted. At the time my wife declared that she didn't believe in sleep training techniques, and there was nothing we could do except grin and bear it. It was if fact so bad, that that the constant waking damaged my eyesight ( No I'm serious, the consultant said, even before I mentioned our situation, "This sort of damage to the cornea is caused by stress and continued sudden waking")

When we had the little girl I hoped we could do better. She is now almost 1, and has been cuddled/fed to sleep on a regular basis. Again any form of sleep training has been rejected outright. She still feeds at 10pm and 5am, and for the last week has spent 2am until 4am awake while been cuddled back to sleep.

I'm told that this is all just normal and if I really asked people in private they would admit it was quite typical.

So.. am I being unreasonable about sleep?

[minxofmancunia]

ime most children sleep through eventually, some of their own accord when they're developmentally ready others are gently encouraged such as limitng their daytime naps and cluster feeding in the eve (thiswas my method), others are coerced into sleeping through by floowing a strict routine and being trained.

I know parents who use all 3 methods, it depends what you're up for. harsh sleep training usually involves a few tears (children and parents). If it works it's great and quick from what I've heard but if it doean't work you'll have stressed your dcs and yourself out for nothing.

it's your call

[GrumpyFish]

Have you thought about / could you afford a sleep clinic? We used one with DS when he was 6 months ish, he was a truly appalling sleeper (up about hourly) and what they suggested worked pretty well. He usually sleeps for 11-12 hours straight a night now (although as others have mentioned, we still have periods where illness / teething cause waking). They came up with a plan for us which was NOT controlled crying (based on a "gradual retreat" method) although being honest it still did involve some crying. Worked pretty quickly - sleeping through after about 3 weeks, huge improvement after 3 nights.

You have my sympathy, I am not good with broken nights, it's one thing if you're on mat leave / SAHM/D, but if you need to put in a full day's work lack of sleep can really get you down.

[TotsDaddy]

loobylu3, interesting post,

I had guessed that an 11m old, who has moved from 50th centile at birth to 90+ centile, and will eat "until the cows come home" has probably just got bad habits? But, if we have a fundamental "rule" of no crying / no sleep training, how could I get from "here" to "there" ?

[elmotaughtddtousethepotty]

hi, the sleep deprivation is awful isn't it.

are you and DW sharing the night feeding / waking equally? if so, then you need to try to explain to her that she needs to meet you half way and try some of the gentler strategies for getting them to sleep better all night. it is U of her to refuse to tackle it if she is then expecting you to deal with the results equally...

there are some quite good books on sleep issues, and i'd echo what loobylu3 said, that an 11 mo doesn't actually NEED to be feeding at night so it is most likely a comfort thing not a food thing. nothing wrong with that, as long as the whole family aagrees there's nothing wrong with that (but that's not true in your case!).

"baby secrets" can't remember who its by, was quite a good book with some gentle sleep training ideas in it. but it did involve some 'leaving them to cry' so you will have to be comfortable with that, and persuade your wife to be too.

we tried them and it worked a treat at 8mo once we were sure she didn't need feeding anymore at night. bloody awful / emotional etc the first night letting her cry a bit, but it only took 1 night and then she slept like an angel since.

good luck and deep sympathy.

[freyasyummymummy]

I can't believe how many people on here think it's normal for a 1 year old child to still be waking 2 times per night?!!
Once a baby is eating solid food (ie 3 meals a day) there is absolutely no physical reason why they cant sleep through the night (12 hours) - buy your wife a Gina Ford book for Christmas...

[OmniDroid]

Have a look at the 'No Cry Sleep Solution' (book). Is absolutely not 'sleep training' in any accepted sense, but has ideas about helping your child to relax/sleep better. Didn't work for us, but then nor did controlled crying when DS was up every 2 hours, and never slept longer than a 4 hour stretch until he was over 2. I can't take seriously at all the idea that you thing you have a 'sleep problem' in your house with those levels of waking, but we're all different, I guess.

[BouncingTurtle]

Freyasmummy - well bully for you, you obviously had a good sleeper. And yes there are lots of reasons for a 1yo to be waking in the night - teething for one!! And yes there are a hell of a lot of mums on here with similar issues.

Totsdaddy - I sympathise(I have a 22mo who still wakes at least once during the night), sleep deprivation is hard! There are lots of different techniques you can try, no cry sleep solution, even GF,they will all take effort and positive action on your part.

You might be better off posting on the Sleep threads, or looking on there to see what other solutions people have tried and see what works for your your DW and your los.

[heliotrope]

No point talking about what is normal as they vary so much. Great for those whose los sleep through from 3months or whatever but most are much more variable.

I used to bf through the night until about 11 months, then DP took control, slept in my DS's room and did whatever it took to put him back down- - eventually he learnt to sleep a bit longer. It took about a week of evil nights for DP. Still wakes quite frequently though.

I favour staying with the baby and trying to keep them in cot but not leaving to cry - just reassuring and staying.

[schroeder]

Not very experienced in these matters as both dc slept through from 6 weeks. dh still harks back to how awful it was

But it seems to me that your problem is less the baby not sleeping and more the dw or dp not willing to do anything about it. It obviously doesn't bother her that much, or she is very squeamish about any sort of training. either way I don't think it's very fair. It's not doing your baby or you any good to keep waking up every night.

You need to try gently to convince her of this, possibly emphasising you baby's health rather than your own. loads of good books out there not to mention mn.

Good luck

[TotsDaddy]

schroeder, thanks for the reply,
She is a doctor (GP) and I am not, so has final say on all health issues. It is apparently reported that the health benefits of sleep are insignificant compared to the potential unspecified future dangers of allowing crying.

[schroeder]

Oh well, I can't argue with that can I!

[Chandon]

Hello,

This is hard. It will all get easier though!

I sleep trained my DCs when they were about 6 months old, as we were just too tired otherwise. Then, I did not call the 10pm feed a "night" feed as such, I dropped that one later. You have to get rid of the 4 am one first.

We only gave them water if thirsty, no milk. We left them to fall back asleep themselves, no extra cuddles. (plenty of those in the day)

We adopted the 10 minute rule, ie only go in after they have cried 10 minutes. This can seem a long time (!). It worked in about a week. They woudl cry a bit, then go to sleep. After 10 mins, we would offer them water and put back to bed lovingly but firmly.

As my GP put it: "If you would wake up at night, and someone would come running to give you a nice hot choc and cuddle you back to sleep, you wouldn´t have any reason to sleep through the night, you would in fact start looking forward to these night time treats...as would a baby"

Good luck!

[ImSoNotTelling]

i stil think that if you are the one having to get up and deal with it, then you should have a lot of input into what/if anything could be tried re. night waking.

[3littlefrogs]

My child won't sleep by Naomi Richman and Jo Douglas is a fantastic book. I am a midwife, and I still made loads of mistakes with ds1, and the book helped enormously with ds2.

Ds1 woke up every 2 hours till he was 14 months old. It was hell.

Everyone is different, some cope with sleep deprivation better than others, some children sleep better than others, there are no hard and fast rules.

You sound pretty desperate IMO, and this seems to be not only sleep deprivation, but problems in your relationship too.

I hope you manage to reach a compromise that you can both live with.

[CinnabarRed]

Another vote for the "No Cry Sleep Solution" book - can't praise it highly enough. Worked wonders for my DS.

And didn't once involve upsetting him, leaving him cry, any other variant of controlled crying, or formal sleep training. Just simple ways to demonstrate to your children (there are different ideas for different ages so your twins could also benefit) that night time is for sleeping, and here's how to lull yourself to sleep.

Only one caveat - many if not most of the ideas are quite labour intensive while your kids are learning to sleep, because they involve gentle adult interaction. But as your nights are already disturbed then that shouldn't be any worse than now.

Why not buy the book for your wife? If after reading it she still doesn't want to give it a try then you haven't lost anything.

[Feierabend]

Poor you, how awful. Of course there is no guarantee that any sleep training will work, but I would think it's worth a try. If your wife won't cooperate though, it won't work. So best of luck with convincing her!

[quirkychick]

If you don't want to do any crying or sleep training, as others have said the Elizabeth Pantley No Cry Sleep Solution is fabulous.

here

It isn't really one solution but lots of gentle ideas to promote sleep, like looking at bedtimes, knowing when you're child is tired, weaning them of nightfeeds: it isn't a quick fix but it will help you all move towards sleeping all night. My dd was fed to sleep and woke for feeds and now sleeps all night in her own room quite happily.

I think if a 11month old is bf then it is quite normal for them to need a feed as IIRC nightfeeds increase the milk supply, if that is what you are doing.

Good luck.

[lisasimpson]

sorry most posters I have read about on mn who are still having these sorts of problems at 1 year plus are either still beastfeeding on demand during the night (and it's a habit/comfort by this age) or are cuddling to sleep. Other than bouts of teething I think you should be able to get a better routine by now.

[Sassybeast]

Every child is different and to Freyasyummymummy - don't make such stupid generalisations I was a smug 'my baby sleeps all night type' when I only had DD1. A few years and a few children later, i'm older and wiser and much less snotty in my derision of those whose kids don't sleep. OP I'm afraid I'm with your wife on this though - sorry. I don't believe in making kids cry. I do believe in setting good routines and habits from very early on - my youngest kids have a bedtime routine, always went into bed awake and self settled. They just couldn't get the hang of staying asleep all night or settling themselves once they had woken. I was on my own with the nights though and I KNOW how horrendous sleep deprivation is, but tbh, if your little girl is only waking once in the night, it's not REALLY a sleep issue. The prolonged waking at night over the last few weeks may be due to her teething or being ill or a myriad of other physical reasons (even if she IS having 3 sqauare meals a day ) Just to clarify - your twins WERE bad sleepers but now sleep through ?
I think modern parents are to quick to think that they can control babies the way they control every otehr aspect of their lives (I include myself in this)
I think that the best thing to do is for you and your wife to work out a way of sharing the waking nights and then bothe getting a chance to recover - alternate weekend lie ins maybe ?
It's part of territory with kids unfortunately - good luck with it.

[PuppyMonkey]

I got mine to sleep doing cold turkey when they were around six/seven months - I know, I know, it's one of the worst crimes on MN. Bloody worked after about three nights though (they slept 12 hours, I mean). And all our lives got better. And I stopped being a neurotic mess close to nervous breakdown. Simples.

Long term problems? Not sure yet - the eldest is nearly 13 and the living embodiment of Kevin the Teenager. The youngest is two and terrible. All perfectly "normal" I'm sure you'll agree.

I think both you and your wife need to be as one on the decision to do anything about the situation though. Doesn't sound like your wife is ready.

[loobylu3]

Well actually totsdad, I'm actually a GP too! I think your DW is being a bit unfair to you tbh. Being medically qualified doesn't necessarily give you a better idea of how to care for a child. I think that your views are equally valid, as you are obviously doing a significant proportion of the night wakings yourself. I don't know that particular bit of research I'm afraid but surely there is a difference between leaving the child to cry for hours and a small amount crying while you or she stay by the cot to comfort your DD back to sleep. I am assuming that your DD is bottle fed (as you are getting up) so perhaps cut back on the no. of mls she is being fed gradually over a couple of weeks. Why don't you suggest to your DW that you go and browse the relevant section in Waterstones (or wherever) to try to find a book with advice that may appeal to her eg Baby Whisperer, No Cry Solution, etc?

poisonous toadstool- that's a really poisonous post and not helpful to the OP at all!

[Cluckyagain]

Totsdaddy - you have my sympathies. Sleep is almost as 'eggshells' an issue as bf and ff in my opinion (and that of observed posts on MN!) I was the opposite to your dw and thankfully my dh agreed - however, I did all the night wakings and therefore I did the sleep training (yes, cc but I didn't just leave them to it!) If you and your wife are both dealing with the night wakings (and I agree - 10pm IS a night waking) then you should at least be able to talk about the issue in a reasonable manner. Yes she has a medical background, but teaching your child to go to sleep without food is not akin to torture, at least not if you do it carefully, sensibly and lovingly. The suggestions of books here are good ones - no cry sleep solution etc.

[TotsDaddy]

Just to clarify, Our twins were reasonable, but each woke for a feed, 2-3ish from memory, every night for a year. For the twins we split duties, one each. At the end of the first year was the first time the both didn't wake. They have improved over the second year and now one is almost 100% and the other wakes one or twice a week. Yes, they still get ill, have dreams, get scared by noises, but they are only little.

Our little girl, wakes at 5am for a feed, but also, every night, between about 2am and 5am. It can be several wakes with 1/2 between each, or it can be just "awake" for 2 hours, or almost anything between. When she gets ill, read 11pm, or 12pm as the start. That is fair enough, again she is only little.

I'm more interested in the days when nobody is ill, nobody is teething and no "monsters/tigers/helicopters are in my room"

What should I expect then, were the twins typical, or can we do better, if no crying is the most important factor

[Sassybeast]

I'd say your twins were fairly typical. and the reality is that there WILL be illness, teething, monsters in the wardrobe etc for the forseeable future. This will NOT last forever - you need to find something in the middle to agree on but you won't be able to force, persuade or cajole your wife into leaving the baby to cry.