Am I being unreasonable .. about sleep

[TotsDaddy]

We have twins, now aged 2y10m and a little girl aged 11m.
The twins didn't sleep through the night until they were a year old, both had a 10pm and 4am feed. The 10pm feed continued untill they were over 2, I was exhausted. At the time my wife declared that she didn't believe in sleep training techniques, and there was nothing we could do except grin and bear it. It was if fact so bad, that that the constant waking damaged my eyesight ( No I'm serious, the consultant said, even before I mentioned our situation, "This sort of damage to the cornea is caused by stress and continued sudden waking")

When we had the little girl I hoped we could do better. She is now almost 1, and has been cuddled/fed to sleep on a regular basis. Again any form of sleep training has been rejected outright. She still feeds at 10pm and 5am, and for the last week has spent 2am until 4am awake while been cuddled back to sleep.

I'm told that this is all just normal and if I really asked people in private they would admit it was quite typical.

So.. am I being unreasonable about sleep?

been nodding my head vigorously at at Lenin's posts.

"IMO if a baby is a sobbing mess & is not responding to sleep training, then he/she is not ready for it & of course the parent should not go ahead, or there may be something else wrong e.g. the child not sleepy enough / calm enough etc. "

Maria, that's the conclusion we came to with our dc. Dc1 certainly wasn't up for sleep training and some of the others who woke in the night woke up wide awake and not at all tired.

As to whether sleep training is linked to depression etc later in life, I'm wasn't willing to risk it with my children for the sake of a couple of years disturbance. It might be hogwash but I can see the sense in it. That doesn't mean that we didn't encourage our children to sleep in their own beds, we just didn't leave them crying for any length of time. With the younger children we just let them lie on the settee until they fell asleep if they wanted to be near us.

Mananny -"It will take several nights for him to feel that the sobs aren't needed to get the comfort, and once he's sleeping okay with you nearby you can wait til he's asleep then go back to your bed. "

Now this I can relate to. We have slept at the side of our toddlers until they've nodded off. More a natural progression from them bed-sharing or the cot being in our room. No tears.

I'm also nodding away at Lenin's posts.

"It will take several nights for him to feel that the sobs aren't needed to get the comfort,"

Thinking about it if the baby (I'm presuming baby in a cot at this point) was sobbing I wouldn't be leaving them lying in the cot. So maybe I don't relate at all to this bit. I was talking about a toddler in a bed when I said we lay alongside them.

juule - From your Australian "position paper" link:

"Infants from about 6 months suffer separation anxiety"

This is why sleep training is best done before 6 months. 4 months for DD and 5 months for DS.

"There have been no studies that assess emotional & psychological impact (of controlled crying) on the developing child"

... meaning, all their claims re danger/damage/"it may teach children not to expect support when distressed" are mere hypotheses with no empirical support whatsoever.

Again, looking down at the Bibliography section:

"The list below is not specifically for studies on the impact of controlled crying on infants because there are no records of such studies."

Just caught up on the progress of the thread and think that the fact that everyone has such heated passionate views on this is itself indicative of the fact that the children we are talking about are well loved and cared about. In the end as long as you do what you feel is right for your child you can't go wrong.

The sleeping arrangements are really all about what is best for the parent and I chose to go with the view that what is best for the parent is best for the child (as I was becoming irritable and resentful on poor sleep). I think some sleep training as discussed at 4-6mths is invaluable but if you child hasn't responded well and perhaps is older then perhaps a 'Mananny' is needed to come as an independent party and help ease the transition and break bad habits (parents and child!).

But at the end of the day, we should all give ourselves credit for trying and surviving each day/night - it won't be forever and if the sleep training is so unappealing then just give it a miss and wait for them to get older (not my choice!).

It sounds like your little girl doesn't know how to settle herself back to sleep when she stirs from lighter parts of her sleep cycle.

She needs to be taught how to settle herself & possibly have a sleep 'aid'. Dummy, soft toy etc. something she associates with going to sleep.

Also, stop feeding her when she wakes, as others have said, if she is eating well during the day it isn't always necessary for a night feed. Offer water when she wakes & see if that helps.

And if your wife is adamant that she isn't going to try to get your dd to self settle, then I would not think it unreasonable to refuse to help her!

Can any of you people who are convinced that training is the key to a child sleeping explain to me what I should do about my DS who was awake from 2am until gone 5am last night singing, playing games, telling stories, jumping about.

He's had 9 hours sleep in the last 24 hours. Surely that's not enough. But I can't force him to sleep.

And if anyone bothers to read my posts properly, I have done sleep training. Again and again and again. It's worked for a few weeks at a time and then it's all gone to pot again. I have pretty much given up now at 2 1/2 and resigned myself to being permanently exhausted

Scary - my son is not always asleep from 7 - 7 but he is resting. He often wakes up at 6am, sings a little song, talks to his toy monkey, then may or may not go back to sleep.
The important thing is that he is learning to decide for himself whether he is tired enough to go back to sleep, and to enjoy resting, even if he's not asleep. If I go get him up, he doesn't get that choice.
Also, once we get up he is extremely active, if that day began at 6, he would get ratty and tired before his lunch time nap and refuse to eat lunch (this has happened several times )
I don't think there is anything wrong with your dc waking up at 2am and playing/singing to himself. That's the point of self settling, he can wake up and sleep when he wants wigin the night without needing your intervention/supervision.

So because I use sleep training, my kids won't want to come for Sunday lunch when they are older

Scary, my DTs don't sleep the whole night either, and when they wake in the morning they chat and play with toys for ages. If your DS is awake, playing etc, does he need you to be there? How old is he? How much does he sleep in the day? Nina hours might be enough for some children, all children are different.

Oops, nine hours - just gave away my name there

Agree with Gracie.

Difficult to comment on Scary's DS without knowing what daily routine, food and activities involve.

totsdaddy this is so normal, the night thursday night ds (who still co-sleeps at 14mo) woke up once at 3.30 quick feed back to sleep then woke at 8. last night he woke at 3.30 then every hour til 8. that is just the way he is. he has a bedtime routine, rice pudding supper, and is fed to sleep.
we've never wanted to 'train' him to sleep, but we do have to admit that after so long, this does get a bit tiresome.
if you both wish to chang your childs sleeping habit, I've had 'the no cry sleep solution' book recomended to me. I've not read it yet but been told it has great results.
hth

No daytime naps. He sleeps with me so actually it's not fine because he keeps me awake too. He's not resting either - he wants to get up and play with his toys and I don't think 9 hours is long enough for a 2.5 year old. We are now co-sleeping because I have tried getting him to self settle over and over again (as I keep saying) and it works for a bit and then he starts waking up again and not getting back to sleep. He does not calm down, he does not self settle, even if I go in every 5 minutes.

Last night was particularly bad - those are only every week or so. Mostly he wakes once every 4-5 hours and then he goes back to sleep straight away when I calm him.

Maybe I could try doing the sleep training for the 6th time but it is exhausting. And knowing it doesn't work for more than a few weeks, I'm reluctant to put us both through the distress of it. It's horrible.

Scary have you tried him sleeping on his own bed next to yours? So that he knows you are there but you are not disturbing each other?

Yes I have tried that juule - he cries and climbs into mummy's bed. Sorry I'm a bit grumpy today - knackered and potty training is a disaster. We both sat on the kitchen floor and cried this morning

Gosh scary, I'm afraid I don't know what to suggest. I don't think I would do sleep training either if I. Was so inconsistent. My only experience of it is with ds, who it worked wonders for.
Have you spoken to your hv about sleep concerns? 9 hours does not seem like very muh for a 2.5 yo.
If it makes you feel any better though, there have been studies that link cc and other distress in young children/babies in a non-hazardous way (eg no real threat or danger) to teenagers being better at coping with stress and anxiety. I think it all depends on what studies you read, but i don't think your dc is at risk of any illness as an adult from you allowing him to cry it out some nights.
I hope it gets better soon. Xxx

Was he in his own room before? Will he play happily on his own or does he always cry? Do you use Cbeebies What about a bunny clock?

There are ways around this I am sure, although some of them may not feature in "wonderful mummying weekly"...

What would happen if you got up with him for an hour, put a film on quiet, make yourself a cup of tea and sit until he's ready to settle down again. When he's ready tell him that he has to close his eyes or he has to go to his own bed. I found this worked with some of mine (did take 1-2hrs). Just accepting that it's part of the night-time routine takes a lot of pressure off. At 2.5y I gave some of them a weetabix too. With all except one they had settled into sleeping through the night by around 3yo some earlier.

Totsdaddy YANBU at all and quite frankly I think your wife is the unreasonable one.
Everyone including small children need a good nights sleep to be healthy and happy.

DD has been sleeping in cot in her own room since she was 3 months old. Even now at two its very rare she wakes in the night, so rare in fact I can't remember the last time she did.
She is robust, healthy, happy, confident etc.

My sympathies it must be hell to have had to cope with this for so long.

Elenorrigby - my children have had broken night's sleep in their early years. They also were/are "robust, healthy, happy, confident etc."

Oooh elenor my DD1 was like that. Slept like an absolute dream. At a bit over 2 though, they often start having nightmares/night terrors as their little imaginations go into hyperdrive.

I am up at least once a night with DD1 now...

Wait and see is my advice, your peaceful nights may not last forever

I can't believe that anyone suggesting offering TV or books during the night is actually expecting their children to become good sleepers!!!!