and disloyal to womankind to NOT find this offensive?

[Astrid28]

I am now a SAHM. DH runs his own company and it got to the point where I could give up work if I wanted to. I wanted to, so here I am.

DH transfers money for the food shopping into my account and I also use the joint account for other things, like birthday presents, DD's lessons/pre-school clothes shopping etc.

A friend of mine has described me on several occasions as being an old fashioned housewife.

I laughed and said I suppose I am! She then went on to say that I shouldn't be pleased with the situation. Don't I find my life boring, and what about my life when my kids grow up and leave home - what then?

I'm still very happy with my situation, but should I be?? Am I 'letting the side' down?

We are all bothered by neglected children Anna. Neglect happens in all types of homes and families so I am not sure I understand your point.

Absolutely knackeredoldhag.

We can all point to our own observations of other people's lives and attempt to use that to conclude some universal point, but it would be totally flawed as a pice of research.

I could tell you about my observations of one of the current lower set classes I teach, and measure how many of the pupils have one parent (or both!) not working and at home, and tell you my observations on each pupil's progress and attainment, their happiness and general well-being. What I can't do is use that information to try to PROVE some universal truth about children of working/non-working parents!!

And I also have to agree entirely with FairyMum that the thought of any other parent standing at the school gate making observations about other people's childrens, parents and carers would be enough to have me running for the hills !!

I don't know any "neglected" children. Working parents or not. I have heard of the two working parent-child-raised-by-the-nanny family. I just haven't met any. Perhaps I don;t move in the kind of circles you do Anna.

I'm sure they exist but as a percentage of the population I'm guessing that they're such a small group that using them in an argument about working mothers in general isn;t very informative.

Anna - I've spent most of my working life with neglected children and your assertions undermine their suffering.

Middle class children, whether their Mums work or not are, on the whole, geeting a fabulous upbringing. Their parents are more likely to be together, they are likely to have a lovely home, a good school, and strong community ties.
They live longer and have much better prospects. All regardless of whether their Mothers work or not.

Middle class Mothers on the other hand spend too much time mithering

Just as an observation (!) since starting my career in teaching, I have come across a few neglect issues, and they have affected children from families where one parent works, both parents work, and where neither parent works. Neglect can be about a range of issues, but whether the parents work or not is usually irrelevant, certainly not directly relevant.

I have come across one child in my time who had attachment disorder - this was a child where the mother was actually at home full time and had numerous children, but tended to lose interest in them once they reached school age as she was obsessed with babies. Do I conclude from that observation that a SAHM is more likely to raise a child with attachment issues? Of course not! Fortunately I understand that research is a teensy bit more complex than one person's experience.

'the thought of any other parent standing at the school gate making observations about other people's children, parents and carers would be enough to have me running for the hills'

but it is OK to make those observations from inside the school gates, right violethill?

I think it is fair to say that Anna doesn't move in the same circles as the rest of us and it may well be true that in those circles some of the children may benefit from a bit more parent time.

I also think that people who can afford to SAH but choose to go out to work because they think that is best for their DC (in terms of providing a positive role model are) seriously deluding themselves. Unless what they mean is that if they didn't go out to work they would be a shadow of their former selves/the mum from hell. Which of course is a perfectly valid reason for going out to work and paying other people to do the 'job'.

My DC had the choice of staying in their lovely prep school and me going back to work or moving to the state sector and me being around to drop them off/pick them up/attend plays/take them to clubs etc. They chose the latter. I am sure in a few years time it will be much less important for to them to have me around and that is when I will return to work, all being well.

Litchick - there was a film out recently in France and one of its more poignant lines was when a teenage girl from a highly affluent family was talking to a boy from a impoverished provincial housing estate. She was talking about her suffering and ended on the note "... there are no social workers in my circles."

There is a lot of "upper middle class neglect" around.

'the thought of any other parent standing at the school gate making observations about other people's children, parents and carers would be enough to have me running for the hills'

but it is OK to make those observations from inside the school gates, right violethill?'

No, you obviously didn't understand what was written thedolly.
I was writing about observations I have made IN THE COURSE OF MY WORK. Because as a teacher, I have a professional duty to watch for indicators of neglect. And to act on it professionally. What I can't do, as I pointed out, is then use that limited observation to draw some universal conclusion.

'I also think that people who can afford to SAH but choose to go out to work because they think that is best for their DC (in terms of providing a positive role model are) seriously deluding themselves.' - so once again, some one thinks they know best for everyone else's children. You choose not to work, the dolly. That's fine. Other people's children may be equally as happy, settled and successful as yours, with both parents working. That's fine too. (though obviously not according to your rule book)

children are children violethill

Absolutely. So let parents make their own decisions, in conjuction with their own children.

It works for you dolly, so let other people make their decisions.

There is absolutely nothing wrong about making observations about how other people lead their lives.

Litchick, I can count on you to bring perspective to the middleclass parenting navelgazing in stark contrast to much more serious deprivation out there.

Anna, I would hardly treat as gospel any personal schoolgate observations or lines from a movie!

If it makes you feel better...

To answer the OP: YANBU. And your friend sounds rather rude.

Clearly, the wide range of financial and personal circumstances in which people find themselves make it difficult to make accurate or meaningful generalisations about whether one ought or ought not to work/stay at home. I say "ought" because - as is always the case - these threads go straight to the heart of the matter, namely that - whatever people might say - this is a moral or, perhaps rather, ethical matter.

I think, because of this, people on each "side" often respond in a manner which makes me think of (philosophical) ressentiment.

"Judging" seems almost impossible, as if, in the Sartrean sense, when we make a choice, we make it for all mankind (hence each of our choices reflects on - and judges - each one of us).

Anyway, it is clearly not a subject easily to be dismissed as the many threads on MN demonstrate.

IMO and IME (and I stress the personal nature of these reflections), I have returned to work for reasons which are a complex mixture of selfishness and thoughtfulness. I believe that my DD would prefer me to be with her full-time, and hence to choose my career over her (for 3 days a week) is selfish, undoubtedly - at this stage at least. It is selfish too in that, in my field of work, it is virtually impossible for someone to drop out for 5 years and return. I would have to re-train and I don't want to do that. I love my job and worked hard to get it, beating over 250 candidates for it. Hence my decision to keep it is - primarily - selfish. We could manage on one salary, though with our current financial commitments, that would be difficult (again, a "selfish" decision not to downgrade our housing, etc.).

Yet, in the long term, it is not entirely selfish. I will be better off, and better able to provide luxuries for my DD. True, she may look back and say that she would've preferred me to be there all the time for her; but equally, she may resent or be unhappy - as a teenager and student at university - that I am unable to provide additional things for her. It's a tough one to judge. I am trying to strike the right balance. In the very long term, I am also providing myself with a good pension, so that I will not be a financial burden on DD when I am elderly, should care become an issue.

I am lucky in that I can squeeze my working hours into 3 full days of work (away from DD), and then do the rest in the evenings while she sleeps. This is a luxury in some respects, though not necessarily in terms of my energies! As time goes on, I hope to be able to juggle my day so that I pick her up from school half the time, and DH the rest.

Anyway, I am rambling. I suppose the point I am making is that I am "happy" to admit that being a WOHM is, for me, a multi-faceted decision which is, in part, selfish. I hope that I am able to parent DD well enough that, in the long term, those days away will not make a difference to her happiness.

It's your choice and if you are happy that's great.

Fast forward though 15-20 years and ask how you will feel when the kids have gone- What will you do with your time?

It's never too late or too soon to start planning another career, or just a course, or travel- whatever grabs you- but if you make the home and kids your reason for living, be careful as they will fly the nest one day, and you will find there is a gap.

Absolutely nothing wrong with making observations about other people's lives.

Quite a lot wrong with trying to use your personal observations to state what ALL children think, feel and want!

I don't have any particular convictions with regards to what the benefits may or may not be in terms of DC having a SAHP.

You on the other hand are entirely convinced that your children benefit greatly from your decision to WOH.

I tell my DC that some mummies/daddies go to work and some stay at home but that they all make their decision based on what they think is best for their family. This allows my children the relatively guilt free option of being a SAHP themselves one day. Can you say the same about your DC violethill - I suspect not.

That was to Anna, not you blueshoes.

Yep, that's the point really. Folk on here ( with far too much time) start nattering about all kinds stuff that they convince themselves is vital.

So a SAHM is no longer doiung it because she likes it and thrives on it but because she is doing the best for the children. Ooh, let's go one step further, those children without a SAHM are somehow negelcted. Ooh let's up the ante again. Those children whose parents are not SAHM are in the same category as children who suffer proper neglect.

And Morosky, no=one said all kids from WC backgrounds have inferior lives. But the vast majority of children who are neglected in this country come from disadvamtaged backgrounds. They have the worst possible start in life.
To deny that devalues their problems. And I won't do that.

Sorry - I think I meant to say "Not to judge is almost impossible"...

Your post says it all dolly. YOU are judging me and my children and the decision my family make.

My children will make their own decisions one day. (But I don't expect you to understand that dolly because you obviously think you know what's best for everyone else!

Hmmmm. Since neglect is now the issue. I wonder how much neglect goes on while people MN?

DD is currently raiding my handbag...

Which is designer, BTW. Do I fill the WOHM stereotype now?

Of course your children will make their own decisions violethill it is just a question of whether or not they are guilt free decisions.

If by me judging you, you mean that I think you are on your high horse then you are absolutely right.

So your children will be able to make guilt free decisions but mine won't dolly?

No chance of you getting off your high horse is there - better just ride off!