and disloyal to womankind to NOT find this offensive?

[Astrid28]

I am now a SAHM. DH runs his own company and it got to the point where I could give up work if I wanted to. I wanted to, so here I am.

DH transfers money for the food shopping into my account and I also use the joint account for other things, like birthday presents, DD's lessons/pre-school clothes shopping etc.

A friend of mine has described me on several occasions as being an old fashioned housewife.

I laughed and said I suppose I am! She then went on to say that I shouldn't be pleased with the situation. Don't I find my life boring, and what about my life when my kids grow up and leave home - what then?

I'm still very happy with my situation, but should I be?? Am I 'letting the side' down?

'any adult who seriously believes that a baby would prefer to be in the care of a nursery nurse than their mother or father, particularly when they're doing a
10 hour day away from home, is kidding themselves'

I'm a bit at this comment. I don't think any adult honestly thinks that do they? And certainly those of us who put our children in nursery or with childminders don't do it because we believe the child prefers to be there! (or perhaps I've misinterpreted what you've said sabire).

What is all this nutting that goes on anyway?

"I think that some mothers are better off at work"

I agree with this. Being at home on your own with children can be a profoundly difficult experience for some parents.

"It doesn't mean that you are prioritising your children more highly than a parent who works"

If being at nursery or in child care was as enjoyable and emotionally sustaining as being with a loving parent then it would be true. Personally I don't think any nursery or childminder could care for my babies as well as I could. I have had moments of being desperate to work more - our house is a mess and I'd love more money to do it up (not that the kids care one way or another). However, I recognised that our babies were happier not to be in full-time childcare. Even now, my kids now are hugely happier to come home after school instead of going to after school club. It's a quality of life issue for my children, and probably is for others. Their lives are nicer and happier when they spend more time with ME and less time in the care of other people. In other words - I'm prioritising their happiness over my need to have more money and smarter surroundings.

It's also quite feasible that some parents will prioritise their children by going out to work f/t instead of staying at home. I know families who have a terrible quality of life because a mother is depressed at home or the family are struggling financially to the point where it is impacting on the children. Those children would be better off with parents who worked more, as long as they have good quality childcare to fill the gap.

"Anyway I have already learnt that making such a statement on MN (or expalining that working parents are still raising their children) is akin to banging one's head against a brick wall. People won't listen because it blows apart such a closely held stereotype and obviously makes people uncomfortable"

What annie said.

"because its much harder to work out childcare for school age children due to holidays and school hours
-Because older children are likely to be involved in additional activities after school
-Because older children have a more active social life
-because older children are more likely to complain about childcare and you are less likely to be "replaceable" as company.
"

Agree with all that too !

But beware of part-timing. It's very hard IMO. You end up being pulled in all directions. If you can, go for 4 whole days not 5 part days.

i think if your happy then leave it be ,

im a sahm i have 2 disabled children so i cant work anymore as im not just a parent but a FT carer in a medical fashion

i am a trained teacher and gave up work to care and be a sahm i also gave up because i could, if you look at it like that.

my dh works 60 to 70 hours a week and is happy to be the sole provider, we have a joint account and i sort all the money out, he never knows whats in there unless he looks

he says can we afford to go to florida say next year il have alook work out a budget and we do it, so it works perfect for us.

i am an old fasioned woman in a respect, but i choose this way of life, in fact i love it. people say what will you do when the children are gone, well im twice married in 42 with 3 older and 4 younger il be to old to do owt when theyve gone

but seriously im not missing a thing in my childrens lives there only small once and i want to be part of it as much as i can.

Funnily enough, having worked three days a week since returning from maternity leave of both my children, I'm now intending to give up working (at least in the traditional office-based sense) when DD starts school next September. Why? for all the reasons anniemac says. (Anniemac, you're becoming my new mumsnet crush!) And mostly because I want to be the one who picks her up from school or is here when she gets home.

MissM - but I assume you must think it's a fairly nice experience for your baby being in the care of other people for the bulk of their waking hours? Otherwise why would you put them in childcare? Surely infancy should be the one time in your life where you should have as much joy and love as possible? God knows life gets hard enough later!

I can't tell you how many people I have heard talking about how nurseries are 'bringing their child on' and how much a better time their child has at nursery than at home. Fair do's - an older child will often make a significant developmental leap forward when they start nurseryin terms of independence and communication, but often these people are talking about 8 month old babies! Always makes me wonder what those parents do with their babies at home, if a 19 year old nursery nurse with 5 GCSE's who has two other children to look after can do a better job with their baby than they themselves can!

You know, something like this could be interesting. We could exchange views. It could be like a conversation between friends. If we accepted that

a. stay at homes are doing their best and what's right for their family

b. workers out are doing their best and what's right for the family

Then I'd feel able to express my concerns more freely about staying at home, about my example to my daughter, about confidence loss out of the workplace: I'd be able to ask questions like, have you ever feared for your relationship with your children and so on.

That's more interesting and valuable than feeling that whatever you are, you are put on one side, and then we all put each other down.

Maybe I'm being unfair. Lots of people have said horses for courses. I'd like to have an SAHM WOHM thread where judging is left at the door.

'Personally I don't think any nursery or childminder could care for my babies as well as I could. '

Neither do I sabire. Neither, I suspect, do most working mothers. The choice has got nothing to do with why people choose to go to work and have their children in childcare.

Aagh, now I'm getting drawn into the argument and am getting dangerously close to defending my reasons for working! I need to stop rising to the bait.

"a. stay at homes are doing their best and what's right for their family

b. workers out are doing their best and what's right for the family "

Stuffit - you have summed it up really well with this statement.

Those dressing up their views as non-judgemental by throwing in the odd 'alternative view' pertinant example of someone they know blah blah - get off your high horse. Express your view - yes. But don't pretend to yourself or others that you are openminded about it.

Stuffit - you say get over myself, I don't actually think I (or my decisions) are in any way superior to anyone else's, and don't think I have come across as arrogant on this thread. It's just an opinion, obviously you will disagree with it because we are coming from opposing points of view. Don't think I need to 'get over' myself though.

Sabire - I didn't actually say in the post work ft - I just do strongly believe that once you have school age children it is preferable to have some kind of paid employment if possible in order to have a degree of financial independence. Because, in most cases, at some point I imagine, you will be wanting to go back to some kind of work.

Even if you are a SAHM until your kids are 18, I imagine that once they go away to uni or whatever most people will want to go back to work. And if you have been out of paid employment you will have a job getting back into the workplace, or you will have one of those crap unfulfilling jobs as descirbed further up the thread.

I appreciate that not all women will want to work, and will be happier spending the rest of their days volunteering or whatever. However, if I was in the situation where I had been the sole earner whilst my partner was a SAHP, I would personally prefer it if my partner started earning and contributing financially to the household.

Also, I don't think that if you work out the home for long hours you are less of a parent than a SAHP. Dads traditionally have worked long hours and are still considered to be good and loving fathers even if they do see less of their children then others who work less hours or none at all. Why can this not be the case for mums?

'MissM - but I assume you must think it's a fairly nice experience for your baby being in the care of other people for the bulk of their waking hours? Otherwise why would you put them in childcare? Surely infancy should be the one time in your life where you should have as much joy and love as possible? God knows life gets hard enough later!'

Yes, I do think it is a nice experience for my children and I know that they're happy there. It's a wonderful nursery and they have some lovely friends. But no, I don't think it cares for them better than I do, and they're not actually there for 'the bulk of their waking hours', they are there for about 7.5 hours three days a week. I am with them for three hours before they go and three hours afterwards before they go to bed. I am with them all day Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I am now getting pissed off with this conversation and don't want to take part any more.

anniemac, the average household income for a two parent professional family where both parents work f/t will be over 70K per annum. That makes work more than about 'feeding and housing and clothing' children.

I didn't mean that post of 11.11 to sound as snarky as it does. Apologies. I just meant that I feel people kid themselves sometimes about what it's like to be on the receiving end of full-time group childcare when a you're very tiny.

Lucky old average household Sabire. Clearly no one I know is average.

we may not earn anywhere near 70k but i can say our lives are much richer than theres. theres more to life than money.

"anniemac, the average household income for a two parent professional family where both parents work f/t will be over 70K per annum"

Average national salary is in the region of £24k and an awful lot of people don't earn anywhere near that. So even if both parents earn the national average then they're on an awful lot less than £70k.

Being a sahm is not wrong! Being a working mum is not wrong!! This is always a contentious issue and women are the worst for criticising each other's life style. What I do think is important is that whatever option you chose, it is your choice, you have as much independence as possible and you do what is right for you. Anyone else's opionion outside (of the marriage/direct family) is redundant.

I have friends who work full time in high powered careers and see their children basically at the weekends...I have friends who are full time mums and puree everything in sight and like me half and half where we work and also run the house hold (I work 4 days a week in pressured job..basically for a pension and also to contribute to the mortgage...no I do not have money left over at month end)

The myth that one of those profiles "has it all" is preposterous! The career mums feel guilty because they have to/want to work but want to see more of their children. The full time mums often admit to feeling frustrated and in need of more adult stimulation and us "half & half" feel rubbish at neither doing a good job at work or at home.

I think a woman has the right to chose the best option for her and should not be criticised for it.

However I must admit I totally agree with ABeta Dad. The ones I secretely don't get are the SAHM with nannies, cleaners and when their child has the remote chance of spending an hour with them get sent of to ballet etc That is not a role model I would want my daughter to think is "having it all" or "something to aspire to"

Sabire - not sure why I'm bothered to engage with you as your views seem so narrow. (Though like stuffit I'd like to share my concerns about being a working paretn in an environment that is helpful not critical).

I would just like to know what you think my DS does at his childmnder? She doesn't send him down the salt mines, you know. They go to the park, play groups, do cutting and sticking, eat spagetti bolognese (obviously not every day). What a cruel parent I am.

I didn't have the luxury of choosing to stay at home so I don't actually spend much time worrying about it. I'm lucky that I'm able to work 4 dyas ratehr than 5 and it had meant sacrifices both financially and in my time ie I do virtually nothing on my own because I want to spend all the available time I have with DS. I'd love to think that I am the perfect mother for DS and he wouldn;t flourish with anyone other than me but I suspect that isn;t true. I think I love him more than anyone else does and would do anything for him but I don't have much patience with messy stuff like painting and don't really run around and play football with him. I think he gets a better rounded upbringing being cared for partly by someone who does that. I'm not sure if that will work out better in the long run or not.

But personally I don't think he's turned out too badly so far.

Yeah, that poster who said it was like banging your head off a brick wall, I see exactly what you mean.

The judgmental, smug tone of some posts on here is infuriating.

"It's not me you're talking about: I'm defending women that aren't me. I'm doing it because I loathe this judgmental attitude. "

Well said stuffitllama.

Sabire, you comment of 11:35 of "That makes work more than about 'feeding and housing and clothing' children."

Yes, you are absolutely right, working is about more than feeding, housing and clothing children. On one hand I spent 8 years at university training for the job I do and although I'm not prepared to tell what it is, I can be sure that your children benefit from having people like me trained and working in my job and yes, I think I'm good at it and I'm proud of it, I chose my job because it involves helping others.

Any spare cash we have at the end of the month doesn't go on fancy shoes, holidays and the like, it does into an account for my dc's so that when they reach 18 they can have a sum to see them through university or whatever they choose to do. This was also true before dh became a SAHP when my second maternity leave finished.

OK, off to do some work