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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that Julia Hollander who put her severely brain damaged daughter into care did the right thing

465 replies

pigletmania · 23/10/2009 16:49

I have just picked up this weeks Pick Me Up magazine and have read the brave story of a woman Called Julia Hollander and her husband who put their daughter Imeogen who has severe brain damage into care as they could not cope. The daughter is now thriving and doing so well in the care of Tania a professional carer. They are still a part of their daughters life and are involved in decision making regarding aspects of her life.

When this couple spoke out about their story they recieved a lot of bad press and was unfairly vilified by people on Mumsnet who if they have not been in that situation have no idea what this couple are going through. They put their daughter into Tanias care so that she would have a better life, this in itself is very selfless and putting their daughter first.

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drlove8 · 24/10/2009 16:21

i havent read all this thread , just a few posts . but would like to ask, whats happened thats different that imogen is now thriving?
was the mother neglecting her? .if that the case then it has bee the best thing for imogen, but i also think the mums a selfish person .

sarah293 · 24/10/2009 16:23

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treedelivery · 24/10/2009 16:33

I wonder what her dh and father to this daughter is like. Is he a monster who put his wife in the position where she felt she had to choose between him and her, or is he a simplistic type who simply rationalised 'daughter is wrong, get daughter sorted and filed appropriately, tyre on car is wrong, also get rid of bald tyre on car, also must see to.....' and so on, or is he a 'brave man' for trying to deal with it all the best way he knows, if he thought his life was going to fall to pieces and they were not going to deal with it at all well....or what is he.

I assume he would have had 50% stakes in the decision but I haven't read too much about this case so I don't know.

pigletmania · 24/10/2009 16:40

Yes it was, it was in the magazine article

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treedelivery · 24/10/2009 16:46

What was his take on it then? How did he come across?

MirandaBailey · 24/10/2009 16:47

What I find unbearable is her endless insistance that she is actually speaking the truth on behalf of all the other parents of SN children who would actually do and say as she has done, if only they were as "brave" as she.

How arrogant is that!

thesecondcoming · 24/10/2009 16:52

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sarah293 · 24/10/2009 16:53

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pigletmania · 24/10/2009 16:57

i was thinking the same thing thesecondcoming many women do have abortions when they discover the child they are carrying is disabled what do you all think of them.

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thesecondcoming · 24/10/2009 17:04

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sarah293 · 24/10/2009 17:05

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Pixel · 24/10/2009 17:08

It's funny you should say that Riven as I was just wondering when Immy is going to be allowed to be a person with rights of her own, rather than being known as the child who was so terrible You couldn't blame her mother for not wanting her.

That won't happen while JH is still using writing about her.

thesecondcoming · 24/10/2009 17:08

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sarah293 · 24/10/2009 17:13

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pigletmania · 24/10/2009 17:25

Though i did the testing, i wanted it my dh was ,dh and i discussed this, my dh is very anti abortion and said that we would cope with things if they happened and would deal with it and make the best of the situation.

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thesecondcoming · 24/10/2009 17:28

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misdee · 24/10/2009 17:36

i didnt have invasive btests with dd's/

however we had very detailed heart scans with dd3+4. not because i would've aborted if they had a problem, but because i wanted to be sure. I didnt want the unknown, and the fact is, if they did have any enlargemnt before birth, we could get treatment started straight away.

sarah293 · 24/10/2009 17:36

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LilyBolero · 24/10/2009 17:52

We had nuchal scans with the 1st 3, because our area didn't do dating scans, so if we wanted any 12 week scan it was a nuchal or nothing.

They now offer a 12 week dating scan as standard, so with pg4 we are just having that. I can't see the point for me of anything further - I wouldn't have an invasive test, and a nuchal only gives a probability, which could worry you further without actually giving you answers. I would never terminate for disability, with the possible proviso that if there was an issue that meant I would die then I would reconsider! I wouldn't do it lightly though.

I have had friends terminate for severe disability, and it is hard, but not something anyone would take lightly. I have friends who had 2 babies who had anencephaly plus other complications, and they took the very hard decision to terminate, as the baby was incompatible with life.

Another way of looking at it is that very often the body itself terminates a pregnancy where there are serious problems with the baby, and in some ways it is part of nature, but it isn't something I could do,my feeling is that I make the decision to care for whatever child is born at the point of conception.

LilyBolero · 24/10/2009 17:53

I also think that with something like DS, which is the one that seems to worry people the most (with most extensive testing), there are far worse things (and untestable things) that can go wrong. And of course, any child may subsequently become disabled as a result of illness/accident, and you would hope they would not then be 'given away'.

MannyMoeAndJack · 24/10/2009 18:28

IMO, many people just don't want to deal with disability, don't want to learn about it, don't want to confront it, don't want to understand it, don't want to be close to it and just don't want it.

Many parents, however, find that when actually faced with disability, they do actually manage and that they still have a life apart from it.

Fear of disability is quite strong.

thesecondcoming · 24/10/2009 18:32

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Hoppity · 24/10/2009 18:41

First, I would never criticise Julia Hollander for feeling shocked and disappointed when she heard her child had a severe
disability. Feeling shock and disappointment in such a situation is natural and human.

I wouldn't criticise her for privately contemplating hurting her child (even if talking about smashing the child's head
against the wall is extremely and unnecessarily graphic) - out of frustration, despair, anger, exhaustion.

That her husband thought about simulating a cot death to put their child out of their lives is in some ways, sadly, horrifically,
comprehensible. Many of us have bought into the modern ideal of perfect children attainable through good diet and meticulous reseacrh.

That the parents openly discussed ways of killing her is to me shocking, but then, I have never had to face this situation.
Perhaps I would speak the horrible, selfish truth they spoke. Who knows.

That ultimately, she took the decision not to care for her child, but to leave her in someone else's care, is again, not extraordinary.
There are unfortunately many children with disabilities in the care system because many parents make the same awful decision.

What I despise about Julia Hollander is that she:

a) even in her shock and despair was calm and collected enough to listen to the coded references by her GP and vicar
that she could get help if Social Services thought the child was in danger of being harmed. And that she firmly insisted
that yes, her child was in danger in the full knowledge that this would help get the child removed. Her response might
have been honest but it was also cold and calculating.

b) she was keen enough to get all the baby kit out of her home on the day she did not collect her child from hospital and
yet she was happy enough to relive the whole experience by writing about it and being interviewed about it - several times.
Yes, the trauma was such that she had to get shut of the high chair and b ut not so strong that it prevented her from writing a
book about the experience. (BTW, could she not have donated the kit to charity? She appears to be from such a privileged
and cushioned background that she never even considers another child could benefit from the kit she doesn't want. "Second hand?
Charity shop? What's that?" I can hear her ask aloud in her lovely Cotswold cottage.)

c) that she has written honestly about this is no act of bravery. Honesty is very overrated. There are many, many situations where honesty serves
only to hurt. The decent thing to do would not be to write "bravely and honestly" about this very upsetting episode in the parents' lives,
but to keep a discreet and ashamed silence at their own selfish reactions. Her brutal, abrupt writing style is so unsettling to read. Her
honesty is unwanted by me.

d) that she went about the long and difficult process of publishing her memoir. Ask any aspiring writer, it is not easy to get
a book published. JH managed to negotiate her way through the process of finding a publisher and then the PR circuit to flog
her story and book. Again, smacks of cold, calculation to me. Not the act of a bereft mother.

e) that she has repeatedly flogged her story (twice in the Telegraph, once in the Mail, once in the Guardian and once on Woman's
Hour and now in "Pick Me up" - sorry, but that is pure exploitation of the story.

f) JH is quick enough to brag that her famous brother and his pals put on a "hilarious show" in aid of Helen's House and raised
40 grand and yet we hear no mention of JH and her husband putting their hands in their pockets and supporting Helen's House
or Tania. The notable lack of bragging suggests to me that she does not financially support the people who care for her child.
Believe me, this woman is so indiscreet, if there was any charitable giving on her part, we would have heard about it.

g) that throughout, we are subtly given to understand that it was because JH's life was so wonderful that she could not be expected to
cope with this "imperfect" (from JH's POV) child. She doesn't hesitate to drop in that she went to an "academic" school (what on earth
is the relevance of that? Only that she wants us to know she is clever and by extension, doesn't "deserve" anything other than an "academic" child, like she was.), that she was 'gutsy and capable' (gutsy????), that she lived in a lovely cottage in the Cotswolds (ie a wheelchair wouldn't fit
into the postcard perfect piture) etc etc

Most of all, what horrifies me about this whole story (not specifically about JH) is the way the media have picked it up and
trodden on egg-shells all around the story of her "bravery" and "difficult decision". That we live in a world where some selfish, elitist,
boastful woman can write about her horrific decision and be widely given media time on her terms makes me despair of modern society.
This woman puts a glossy spin on her situation and the media are complicit is shocking; the true story is of Tania, who is an inspiration
to those with and without SN children. But the media would never care to oublish a story focussed on Tania because it's just not
going to shift copies.

Yes, JH gets a hard time on MN. But she has a very, very easy time of it in real life, outsourcing the care and love of her child to Tania.

saintlydamemrsturnip · 24/10/2009 18:51

Agree with manny and wannabe.

I hate that you can terminate up to birth for severe (defined very broadly -eg includes mld's) disability but other babies are protected from 24 weeks. However, I also think you can't force someone up carry a baby they don't want do believe the termination limit should be raised to birth for all children. My issues are never about individual decisions (providing people aren't crass enough to tell me about termination for learning disabilities in front of ds1 - I have no wish to know if - none of my business- tbh and definitely not in front of him) but rather about the prejudice towards disability - especially learning disabilities - which is so common and accepted that most people don't even realise what they're saying.

I think that giving your child up to the care system must be terribly difficult - I dread the day we'll have to do it - but for goodness sake you have a responsibility to your child to ensure they will be receiving decent high quality care. JH didn't do that / she wiped her hands of her daughter. Yes it's a story with a happy ending (for everyone except julia as far as I can tell) but no thanks to the parents.

And I agree - I hate the way she puts herself forwards as a spokesperson for parents of disabled kids. She us not and I rarely agree with get views.

saintlydamemrsturnip · 24/10/2009 18:55

Brilliant post hoppity