To expect someone not to let their three dogs jump all over me

[8oreighty]

and "playbite" my arms?!!! I was on a rural path...fair enough, but I think people should control their dogs...I got muddy footprints all over me. It is also kind of scary if you don't know the dogs. There were two women with 3 dogs, not even an apology. Even when I said angrily, "please can you get your dogs off me". That's just not on - is it?

no what i am saying is that a lot of young children do not know that every dog is approachable. and therefore may think that a dog is friendly ie doesn't mind having his ears pulled whatever. when actually it does, and may lash out.
dog owners need to be sensible too, keeping a dog on a lead on streets near schools etc. is good practice, but dogs need exercise and in an open field, need to run off energy, as long as they are trained enough to come back when called.
i didn't say that if a dog was to bite a child it would be the parents fault thats just twisting my words to have a go at me.

Stayinsunny - I think we are all trying to say the same thing but going round in circles;

If a dog is jumping up near your child (or any child) or if you feel it is behaving in a threatening way then its acceptable to use any means necessary to remove that dog and this includes violence.

'in most cases i have heard about where children are bitten by dogs, the child approaches the dog. and if it is young children we are talking about why is the parent not watching them? '

sounds like your saying that to me sneezecake

Kerry - am I right in thinking that it was you who said you had worked in animal welfare/rights circles?

LittleMissMummy - I'm involved in a campaign to help staffies, so many of whom are thrown out and end up dying in pounds here in the UK. May I ask if your reservation about going to your family members home is because they have a Staffie or would you feel like this about any breed? Nothing personal, I am just trying to get "the bigger picture" to understand why people feel as they do about the breed.

Thanks.

i mean why didn't the parent remove the child from the situation before the dog could act. didn't realise i had to spell it out

When you've got small children, you do your best to keep them away from danger or to keep danger away from them - that's a parent's responsibility. But I don't think that removes any of my responsibility to make sure my dog is safe and behaves around other people.

And for what it's worth, if my dog jumps up at someone, I catch her, tell her 'No!' and apologise to the person. People come up to me and want to pet her, because she is a cute labrador puppy - and I do my best to keep her under control, and I warn people that she is a puppy and not trained yet, so may jump up and mouth. But I do my best not to let her. And we are going to puppy classes so she can learn to behave.

Even when she is fully trained and grown up, I will be keeping her on the lead when we are in areas where other people are playing etc. We are lucky round here that there are a number of areas where we can take our dogs and they can run off the lead - these aren't parks or places kids might be playing - they are fields that the dog walkers are allowed to use, so I can let her off the lead to get her exercise. If we do end up at a park or beach where there are children around, she'll be on the lead.

of course your first instinct is to save your child therefore wouldn't it be easier to remove your child from harms way then have a go at the stupid dog owner for not training his dog correctly?

valhala great post, spot on.

"I do believe that all dogs off the lead should wear a muzzle,that way the only damage they can do is knock a child over rather than scar it for life"

Rubbish argument. I live in the country and walk my dogs in rural locations, often not seeing another living soul. Also walk them during school day so the probability of seeing a child around is less than zero. Stick your sledgehammer to crack a nut solution up your ......

However - if I lived in surburbia (thank Christ I don't) and was likely to encounter many people (again, thank Christ I don't ...with emphasis) - my dog would be on a lead. In the country I have to be responsible with my dog around horse riders (she loves to chase) and so she is put on a lead when I see one, and around calves and foals (again, placed on a lead when I see one)...oh and pigs when let loose in the forest!

Think it is entirely appropriate to take whatever measures necessary to deter a dog attacking a child (a good kick etc). Of course children are more important. Horrified at story of poor little boy whose artery was nearly severed.

Irritated by the generalisations however. Yes you can never 100% predict a dogs behavior - but you can't predict peoples either, and yet we don't advocate chemical castration of all men - just in case

Well said hmc, and I have an idea of where you may live... and if I am right (it was the mention of pigs in the forest which made me wonder), I am SO jealous!

How many times have I had people tell me that my GSD is dangerous (on lead, well behaved) just because he is THERE? How many times when walking in an area where only other dog owners go have owners of little dogs picked their little fellas up and remonstrated with me because my own dogs have the cheek to be a Lab and a GSD, despite me calling them to heel and leading them immediately for fear of THEM having a JRT hanging off their noses?! How many times have parents bundled up their children to their sides and given me dirty looks when I am walking my boys on lead with my own 2 kids? Am I really likely to own dogs who will kill kids when I have 2 children of my own? Just as no-one can generalise that a strange dog isn't a threat, neither should anyone generalise that a dog, because of his breed or size, IS a threat. As you say, hmc, we don't generalise about men in this way... do we???!!!

And yes, Kerry, I DO trust my dogs, even the one who was abused by man... with my cats, kitten, each other, me, pet ferret, family, friends, friend's children, neighbours, neighbour's pets, foster dogs, friend's dogs (had one in the house tonight as it goes, with a pals child), because I know them and because they have NEVER given me reason to doubt them. They have been brought up with love since coming here and they return it tenfold.

I can only speak from my own experience but I feel that I have sufficient on this subject to do so with confidence. If anyone who has advocated violence towards a dog for merely jumping up, as per the OPs question, is as equally experienced with all breeds of dogs, not just those in a family home, from all manner of backgrounds, including abuse cases, over as many years, I will gladly kneel at their feet for advice and wisdom.

Kerry, would love to get to talk more about the whole animal welfare area as I get the impression that you have experience of overseas dog owning/life and all it brings and that would be an education to me but of course thats not possible here where your anonimity is important.

I hope that you and I will "meet" one day on one of the dog forums, where I am sure you'd recognise my style of posting, and we can continue this conversation, which seems to have drifted from the OPs post quite a lot.

To go back to that post, I hope that the poor OP, who may well not have known what she was unleashing, is assured that I DO think that the dog owner she referred to was very unreasonable and bad-mannered. Hopefully that owner will not act in the same way again.

Out here on the Downs, a farmer is allowed to shoot a dog s/he feels is a threat to their sheep.
I think children should have the same rights as sheep.

hmc so i can stick my idea of making dogs wear muzzles up my... can i?

well arent you the lucky one being able to exercise your dogs where you wont see another living soul,whereas where i live in a small village the dog owners take over the park in the centre of our village & let their dogs run loose & they yes they do jump at you,circle you etc.

Just what is the problem with a dog wearing a muzzle? As far as i know they wont hurt them.

And as for saying about chemically castrating men

Oh & not all children are in school during the day,what about babies in prams & toddlers?

Riven - an excellent post,you are spot on.

doesn't muzzling put accross the image that all dogs are likely to savage people. I have a yorkie who is tiny, and yes yappy but whn he is out walking he is more interested in fetching his ball. which he couldn't do if he was muzzled. but if he was likely to bite someone i dont think he'd have the strength to break the skin, let alone savage anyone.
if you were the kind of owner to muzzle a dog, i think ou'd be the kind of owner never to let your dog off the llead in the first place? i could be wrong

riven - i don't agree with your post. i see no reason to muzzle most dogs. my dog, like many others, likes chasing a ball - not possible with a muzzle. of course dogs are not 100% predictable - neither are humans. life is not predictable, it is full of risks and it is not possible to completely negate all risks - the risk of a dog attacking anyone must be statistically pretty low when you take into account the number of dogs vs the number of reported incidents.

also, where do guide dogs and other helping dogs fit into your plans? should they be muzzled too? search and rescue dogs? police dogs?

kerrymum- you say that you have no problem with dogs who are under control in public yet you live in ireland where dogs are often seen wandering the streets on their own, despite it being illegal. (in ireland all dogs are by law required to be on a lead in a public place and owners must have a dog licence.) surely you must be used to meeting such dogs when you are out and about - have you or your children ever been harmed by one? i am genuinely curious as to how you manage (despite your posts on the subject i rally can't see you going around kicking random dogs!).

Ooo these dog threads always turn a little rabid don't they?

The law says a dog should be under control in a public place; although that doesn't necessarily mean on a lead. If your dog is jumping up another person then to all intents and purposes it's not under control and if you're taking it somewhere where it takes the opportunity to do that (and not all dogs do) then really, as the dog owner it is up to you to stop it not up to the other person to go out of the way to avoid your dog. Under the Dangerous Dogs Act a person only has to have 'reasonable apprehension' for a dog to be considered dangerous.

And FWIW as a person who's been bitten I resent the notion that it is my fault/a child's fault because I didn't react in the correct way. I was bitten by one of a pack of Jack Russell's whilst walking by a farm gate on a public highway, minding my own business. I should not have to cross the road to avoid them (although I sensibly would have had they not come upon me so suddenly) No-one should have to take evasive action from a dog.

you are quite right you shouldn't have to take evasive actoin to avoid a dog, but if you saw an unrestrained strange dog, would you not pick your child up and move away from it? I know i would and anyone elses child for that matter. but people are more intellegent than dogs as it has been pointed out so therefore they shuld show some common sense and move away from potential danger

Of course you would sneezecake however some owners think that having the ability/opportunity to avoid the dog absolves them of the responsibilty of controlling it in the first place.

responsible dog owners don't think this way, unfortunatly not all dog owners are responsible.