to think that 'counselling' in any of its myriad guises is by and large a bloody waste of time?

[moondog]

At best a self-indulgence, at worst positively damaging.

I agree with Minx. This should be about evidence based intervention.

I think you have to find what works for you.

When the boys were diagnosed with their SN I went and asked for Anti-d's as I was really low. The GP refused and suggested counselling as it wasn't something meds would help, something I had to learn to adjust to instead. I didn't take it up (mainly becuase of childcare) but wish I had done as DH admitted afterwards that he found me spending the next year or so talking it out really upset him, he doesn't deal with things in that way.

Whndh was ill I listened and did all i could because there was no consellor available (on long term sick) and tbh hearing your dh say he wants to die isn't something that is always great- a break would have been incredible (he's well now, on meds and doing fine)

Llama you said "What sort of message does it give people" when soeone recommends a counsellor.

I think it is quite unfair and DANGEROUS to suggest that family members and friends are capable of non-judgementally listening to someone in mental distress - by the very nature of the fact that they love them, they are never going to be an impartial ear who can listen for hours about their grief / eating disorders / sex problems / post-traumatic stress. It takes skill to teach someone the tools for coping with emotional trauma and loving someone is certainly NOT enough.

'actually family, friends, and community might be just as helpful.
'

and sometimes thats the biggest problem of all isn't it? sometimes we just dont have any

have only read the OP, a cardinal sin, i know, but will read the rest!

IME, counselling is an excellent tool, alongside other things to help you get well and to come through mental health issues

i think it is vital to know and understand the limits of counselling and to know it is nto a magic wand that will turn your life around and give oyu answers

it gives you the tools to find things out that can help you to move forward and it can be difficult and upsetting, but essentially a good thing

counselling as a generic title sounds a bit meh, finding the right counsellor and right approach can be hit and miss, same with finding the right AD and right dosage

i think it is a vital tool to help comabt mental healht problems

friends and family who mgith well be part of the problem are hardly going to be able to help someone who is in turmoil? and friends and family cannot always /ever listen non judgementally and give the right advice.

sometiems a more detached proffesional approach is needed

Llamarama Fri 18-Sep-09 11:35:39 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

"I do however think that 'normal' family adn friends can listen to people they care about who are in emormous emotional distress."

Right- so if you had been sexually abused by your dad, your mum would be the best person to listen to that? or your siblings, who either suffered the same, or feel guilty because they didn't?

My Mum who has suffered from ill health all her life would be the right person to have to listen to how angry I feel at the thought that I have passed on her condition to my dcs?

People who feel their life has been ruined by childhood neglect should talk to their families about it?

The newly bereaved husband is the best person to listen to the dcs expressing their anger over the death of their mum? Or should that have been their dying Mum?

And the husband himself- does he let the children take the burden of listening to how angry he feels?

How do you suppose any of those people would be able to talk freely without watering down their feelings to avoid hurting the other person? The beauty of a counsellor is that it's someone who won't be hurt because this doesn't concern her. So for once you can say what you really feel, without risking having to hear in years to come how it has ruined relations between you forever.

Cory you put that a lot better than I managed to. I agree with you entirely.

And me. In fact, I can think of very few issues that would be 'safe' to discuss with family or friends.

I disagree.

I am a mental health nurse and work on an all female forensic medium secure mental health unit. Its the intense psychological therapies on offer that help these women move on, not medication.

I wpould love to be a fly on the wall and observe the clinicians in action- because whatever it is that they are doing, it certainly works.

DBT for example for women with Bordeline Personality Disorder. Probably the most innovative therapy available for this client group.

Ah I see that Minxofmancunia (cool name!)already mentioned DBT.

Sorry - could I hijack briefly and ask someone to explain what DBT is? I've had CBT, but have had my diagnosis of BPD for a while now, and DBT has never been suggested to me.

Mind DBT

I don't really disagree with most of what you are all saying, about the helpfulness of counselling/therapy. And yes of course there will be instances where someone cannot talk to family/friends and yes instances where psychotherapy is what is needed.

BUT, if you can try please to undesrstand my point before you get all on your high horses again, it is important to recognise that we can listen and help others who are in great emotional turmoil ourselves - you do not have to be a 'trained counsellor'.
Yes, it is enough to love someone, to be able to listen and help.
Telling people that they can't help thier friends adn family is what is dangerous. Yes, they might need professional help AS WELL. But too often familieis see the professional help as the 'answer' when actually, unless you're going to hospitlaise someone for the rest of their life, it can only ever be a small part of the help they get.
I think it is worrying that we devalue and forget about the importance of 'ordinary' people having hte resources and ability to help each other, in favour of counsellors.

Llamaram - when my child died my husbands child also died, my parents grandchild died, my PILs grandchild died, my siblings niece died, as well as watching my pain they had their own pain to deal with. Any body who loved and cared for me loved and cared for my daughter as well. The death of a child is not part of the natural order and most people are ill equiped to deal with it.

I really do feel that you are suggesting that counselling as a whole undermines societies ability to deal with grief but I would argue that society just can't deal with it whether counselling was there or not.

Moondog - what shall I do then? Shall I go to the counselling group which I hope will enable me to get to the root of my depression, examine my negative thoughts and learn ways to deal with them and eventually be free from medication, or shall I just stay on the antidepressants than leave me emotionally numb?

And if counselling is self-indulgent - so what??!! What's wrong with a bit of indulging oneself every now and then? No-one can be utterly selfless all the time, and no-one should. Some people indulge themselves with spa treatments or shopping trips, alchohol or chocolate, a long lie-in or a session on mumsnet - and if I want to indulge myself with a spot of therapy, and feel it will benefit me (and it won't harm anyone else) - why shouldn't I?

tiredemma - you qualified - and got a job. Congratulations. I remember "chatting" to you when you were a student nurse.

Can I just say to those of you who are writing out stuff which may be quite painful, or is making you angry to have to spell out: please don't get upset. Don't put yourself through posting the personal stuff if you don't want to.

Moondog is an hilarious poster and then every so often plants a bomb like this. It always goes this way, it always upsets people who are just a bit vulnerable. It's a cyclical thing...Don't get dragged into justifying yourselves or your decisions. It's more of a game than anything, it seems.

somewhat patronising there prunerz

Llamarama - I think that it is you that doesn't really understand. The things you are saying are potentially damaging. People only have counselling and other talking therapies if it is inappropriate for them to be helped by just their loved ones. It is a ridiculous assertion that professional help should be a last resort when people are hospitalised! One of the main applications of counselling is often to help people maintain their ordinary lives without needing further treatment or hospitalisation.

Erikamaye google "Marsha Linehan" and you'll get a lot of stuff about DBT, it's a mixture of CBT and Zen philosophy, sounds strange but research indicates good outcomes for people with BPD. I did my MSc dissertation on this! It explres the dialiectic between acceptance of what's gone before (Zen) and active chnage using skills learnt in therapy (CBT). It looks at interpersonal skills, emotional managemernt skills (a biggie!), problem solving and other isuues such as therapy interfering behaviours and detailes analyses of any occurences of deliberate self-harm.

Lorraine Bell a clinical psychologist has also written a skills manual for women with BPD "how to manage intense emotions and overcome self-destructive behaviours".

DBT is sadly scarce and under funded in the NHS because it's so resource intensive. It's usually 2 years long 1 or 2x per weeks involving group and individual therapy. Also the therapists have to work as a team to supervise each other, it's not advised to be a lone therapist when working with BPD. i.e. to discuss boundary and transference issues.

It's worth asking your GP about theough, your CMHT may be able to offer this treatment.

Just a veteran, MP, that's all.
Don't like to see people tripping over themselves to prove the OP wrong when she's most likely not bothered (going by past experience).

We have wekly sessions at CAMHs about my boy's needs and theya re fundamentallya round sleep and risk taking behaviours for asd ds3, however I have noted the Psych setting aside a bit of time for me each week. She was horrified how abandoned we are- SSd have an extreme definition of severe disability that prevents us getting respite becuase we can't evidence that ds1 won't improve (doesn't stop his behaviour now though).

I talk freely as I get on well with the lady- just about 'silly' things such as the guilt I had when I realised the boys disabilities were genetically passed down via me, and about how horrid it is to watch my nine year old ds1 put himself through what we know is anorexia (we haven't taken opportunity for a formal dx but there is a team on call to us if we choose or need to). She can't take t away or make any of it better, but somehow it has made me a feel a lot better about myself- one of the struggles of ASD is the constant negative feedback when nothing much changes or ds1 takes it on me physically, and just getting a few minutes to express that and get some positive feedback about what I am trying and managing is more significant than I could ever imagine.

Prunerz - I agree with your view on the OP. I found her postings quite snide and nasty and would cetainly question her motivation. I'm sure a lot of people have been hurt unnessecarily (?sp).

I felt the need to post so I could answer other posters view points. I didn't feel the same about their motivations, however, even if I felt their views to be wrong.

That makes a lot of sense.