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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

'why bottle might be better than breast' - GMTV this morning

409 replies

babyignoramus · 19/08/2009 08:15

Hasn't even been shown yet but can't imagine it's going to go down too well here!!!!

Anyone else going to watch - it's going to annoy the arse off me but I can't seem to tear my eyes away......

OP posts:
moondog · 22/08/2009 18:56

(Possible that the midwives weren't thr right peopel to help you, however well intentioned maybe?)

foreverchanges · 22/08/2009 19:09

yeah leche league helped me. midwives just told me to ff .thinking of training to be a bf counsellor with them

zippy539 · 22/08/2009 19:14

Thanks Moondog - I do appreciate that.

I am completely pro-breast feeding btw.

OneStroke · 22/08/2009 20:26

I haven't read quite the entire thread but I would recommend for anyone who is interested/passionate about this issue to read 'The Politics of Breastfeeding' by Gabrielle Palmer.
It is an eye opener.

ManicMother7777 · 22/08/2009 21:01

I haven't read the whole thread either, but the point I'd make is that many of us are aware of the debate and the risks associated with ff, but we choose to accept the risks when considered alongside a host of other aspects of having a new baby. Just as not all of us drive the statistically safest car.

Whitetara · 22/08/2009 22:12

I just wanted to chip in here after reading zippy's comments. I also wanted to bf and read all I could about it, demand feeding, getting the latch right etc before dd was born. What I didn't anticipate was having no (that is zilch) supply for about a week and for only a trickle to come in after about 10 days. Then nothing particularly satisfying from then onwards despite demand feeding.

I had a screaming unhappy newborn, whose skin was grey and peeling and had sunken fontenelles. Neither she nor I slept (at all) for 72 hours after the birth.

Four or so (can't remember exactly as a blur) days after she was born my midwife asked how I felt about ff. I wanted to persist with bf. The next day, it was clear that no milk was in, so in the end we gave her some formula and I was put on a programme of feed, express, top up every 3 hours, in order to give my body time to produce the milk. My daughter was frequently desperate during this time.

After 2 months my hv was asking me whether I was doing a lot of exercise. I wasn't. Even after this time, supply and demand was not working so at three months I decided to ff full time. It was the best decision I ever made as I could then concentrate on mothering my baby in other ways, instead of feeling sick every time she cried because she was hungry because I had almost nothing to give her. I got a lot of support (though NCT were rubbish) from my mw and health visitor, but in the end to no avail.

Bf is great if you can do it, but there are sometimes medical reasons why it is not possible and had there not been formula my options would have been either the baby die or find a wet nurse. I was constantly being told by nct that it was a supply and demand thing. Apparently it is not always and can depend on a number of complex physiological issues.

We are lucky in the west to have a clean water supply and regularly stocked shops so that we can make these choices. I am grateful that I could make that choice and my daughter thrived on it.

drosophila · 22/08/2009 22:43

It is amazing how upsetting and emotional feeding your baby can become. With my first it was agony but I was so concerned about allergies and asthma (family history) I persisted. When I got mastites (sp?) I dodn't notice the pain as the constant pain was so great. I only noticed I was very hot. So on and on I went (I am sure it effected my bonding) for about 7 months and wouldn't you know it he is highly allergic to 5 different food groups (his consultant finds him an interesting case) and he has asthma. SO now we have epipens and medicine everywhere we go and guess what it is possible ad likly that my constant eating of humous during breastfeeding is why he has a serious allergy to chickpeas and seasame seeds.

I have very mixed feelings about Bfeeding.

zippy539 · 22/08/2009 22:50

Whitera - thankyou, you have put it a lot more eloquently than me. Sometimes FF is the absolute best decision you can make for your baby.

sabire · 23/08/2009 09:45

"Bf is great if you can do it, but there are sometimes medical reasons why it is not possible"

I don't see why both you and Zippy seem to feel the need to assert this point. Are you suggesting there are people on this thread who don't know or accept that sometimes breastfeeding is simply not an option?

Where has anyone suggested that breastfeeding is possible or appropriate for everyone?

We all know that breastfeeding isn't possible for some people - even with really good help.

Whenever these threads crop up there will be the voices like yours and zippys making the same point - as though bf advocates are unable or unwilling to acknowledge the truth of it.

The really BIG issue in this country from my POV is that it's extremely difficult to identify who that 2% - 5% of women are (those with intractible bf problems) because they get lost among the huge swathes of mums who are struggling because of poor postnatal care or from a lack of knowledge about normal newborn feeding patterns.

I'm sorry the NCT bf counsellor didn't identify the root of your problem. They have hundreds of bf counsellors and some are better than others. What they are used to seeing is large numbers of people with perceived supply issues, who actually do need to feed their babies more frequently/sort out position and latch problems, or simply need a boost in confidence.

It's also the case that there are mums who are desperate to stop bf, who find it very difficult to make that decision. Some women have a vested emotional interest in believing (and convincing those around them) that they don't have enough milk for their baby - if they can be told by a hp that they need to stop bf for the welfare of their baby it can be a huge help, as the decision is then really taken out of their hands. Sometimes someone with a genuine supply problem caused by physiological ideosyncracies will slip through the net - when this happens it's very difficult and upsetting for the mum. It does sometimes happen.

However the number of times this happens (that a mum with an intractible supply problem) is missed is tiny in comparison to the very, very large numbers of women who give up because of perceived supply problems. There are vastly too many women believing and being told they don't have enough milk for their babies, and that really needs tackling. As long as this situation continues then the mums with more complex problems are going to be missed. The answer isn't to stop encouraging women to breastfeed or to stop emphasising that most women CAN breastfeed. The answer is better education for mothers, doctors, midwives and health visitors.

On a personal note - my third baby was very hungry and at times I was feeding him two or three times an hour, and this was when he was 6 weeks old. He would 'graze' at the breast all day on and off. Had I not been a confident and unselfconscious breastfeeder who knew that this pattern of feeding was normal for some mothers and babies, I would have been convinced that he was feeding all the time because I wasn't making enough milk. Some women struggle emotionally with this sort of feeding pattern, the intensity of it can be hard to bear for a new mum, especially if she's also struggling with other aspects of adapting to life with her new baby. It happens that women will sometimes ignore their baby's feeding cues in situations like this, not necessarily deliberately - and end up restricting feeds. These women will end up with a very hungry, unsettled baby who won't thrive.

I'm not saying this was your situation, but I'm saying this does happen, much more than people realise. Because we're a bottlefeeding culture we're simply not emotionally geared up for this sort of normal mammalian feeding pattern. We expect babies to feed fairly regularly, and certainly after the first few weeks we expect them to restrict their feeds to every 2 to 3 hours. It can be very disturbing and upsetting when a baby wants constant access to the breast when the mother is already struggling emotionally - especially as pawsandclaws points out, if she is self-conscious and embarrassed about breastfeeding.

moondog · 23/08/2009 12:33

You write terrific posts Sabire.
It's fantastic to have you contributing to thisdebate.

debs40 · 23/08/2009 12:52

What if you don't want to breastfeed at all, not ever, in any circumstances, because it just isn't that important to you and you don't actually define yourself by it?

What if you have read all the facts and figures and you know all the information, but you just don't want to do it?

Or what if you start doing it, get sick of the emotional drain, and don't want to continue? You don't need 'help', you'd just rather stop.

How many women use 'milk supply' or 'can't do it' etc as an excuse to stop because they actually don't want to do it?

How are these issues factored into the figures on breastfeeding? This isn't a zero sum game. You will never convince 100% of women to breastfeed even with extensive support, a change of culture and the best information because 100% of women don't want to breastfeed.

Just like 100% of women don't want a natural birth.

Just like 100% don't want a C-section, or an epidural, or to stay at home or to go to work.

We are all different and it should be up to the individual to decide how they feed their child.

I don't care if people breastfeed a child for years or if people give formula to their baby. The bond between mum and child is precious and if the mum is happy about her choice this is likely to make a great difference to the developing bond.

I wouldn't presume to comment on anyone else's choice.

Why is it that others get so fluste

I can never understand the drive to convince every women

moondog · 23/08/2009 13:06

I's nothing to do with convincing every woman at all. If people don't want to then that is fine. It is however important they are aware of the implications and risks of formula feeding. If they are happy to take that on board and still want to formula feed, then they have made what is known as an 'informed choice'.

That is the model for health education.

Know and understand the risks of your behaviour and then make your decision, whatever that decision may be. No bullying, no cajoling, no emotional reactions to snuggly wuggly formula ads, just facts.

It's the least we deserve for ourselves and our children. Anything less is an insult to us all.

Whitetara · 23/08/2009 13:55

Sabire - was just recounting my own personal story without particular reference to anyone. I'm fairly new here, so I don't know what other threads there have been and what's been said on them.

Regarding the point about the physiological aspect to lack of milk - my own experience is that it was never mentioned before I had my baby. All I was told at antenatal classes, and read online and in books, was that milk came in, baby fed, supply met demand. I was completely unaware that sometimes milk doesn't come it and it came as a big shock.

I'm sure a lot of people here are aware of this issue, but I wasn't at the time, although clearly I am now. Before my own experience, I had thought that bf was possible for everyone and had a big shock when I just wasn't producing any milk.

LilyOfTheMountain · 23/08/2009 15:12

Whitetara (love the name, takes me bac to my Uni Buddhism classes....) the essential thing is that info IS out there, if poeple wish to look.

It's ashame sites like Kellymom are not promoted further as they really do help, but that's something that happens every time they are mentioned on here.

Then again, last time I quoted from there some people just said they didn't believe the research. So you think- why bother?

The answer of course is that lovely feeling of managing it with ds4 against the feeling of awful misery at not being able to BF ds1.

Whitetara · 23/08/2009 17:36

Lily - thanks for the tip re kellymom. I'll have a look at it in the couple of weeks before my next baby is due.

foreverchanges · 23/08/2009 19:16

debs 40 your facts dont make no sense

how can 100% woman not want a natural birth ????????
100% woman dont want a c section that makes no sense at all statistically

i chose to have a normal birth with my first (and 2nd) could have had elective c sec as he was positioned wrongly (if i had known he had chord round his neck i would have done)

lots of women choose natural birth

lots of women choose to bf

its a fact

and ps what a waste of colstrum

foreverchanges · 23/08/2009 19:23

colostrum

debs40 · 23/08/2009 19:27

I think you were missing the point of my post!! They are not facts at all.

My point is how can it be expected that everyone will want to do anything, whether it be natural birth, having a c-section, breastfeeding or shopping at M&S?

My personal experience is that there is a tendency to avoid the fact that some women simply don't want to breast feed when debating this. The consequence is that this can make targets unrealistic.

It is ok not to breastfeed. I just don't understand why saying that feels contentious??

foreverchanges · 23/08/2009 19:33

fair enough debs 40

i did miss the point(i ll admit to too much sunday wine)

to me bf was /is essential but i understand it is not to all thankgod for ff so that there is a choice

sabire · 23/08/2009 20:34

Debs - It's true that you will never get all women breastfeeding. Even in the days when artificial feeding was a practical death sentence for babies, some women simply couldn't bring themselves to breastfeed. However, in Norway they've got to the point where 98% of women leave hospital breastfeeding and 90% are still bf at 3 - 4 months. It hasn't always been like this - in the 1970's they had similar rates to us.

"The bond between mum and child is precious and if the mum is happy about her choice this is likely to make a great difference to the developing bond."

For the majority of women who bottlefeed - bottlefeeding is not a free choice, they've ended up doing it because they have been unable to continue breastfeeding. That suggests to me that the mum can't be 100% happy with her choice, as it was not her intention. I mean - can you imagine women who wanted to bottlefeed being made to breastfeed for over year because for some reason bottlefeeding had been made impossible for them? Do you think they'd be 'happy' and content with this?

Would also want to add that the women who choose not to to initiate breastfeeding at all tend to be the youngest, the poorest and the least educated women in society. They also tend to be women who come from communities with traditionally very low breastfeeding rates, and who may have a history of very unpleasant breastfeeding experiences with previous babies. To what extent have these women been able to make a truly free and fully informed choice to bottlefeed?

We owe it to these women and to their babies to make breastfeeding a more realistic choice for them.

Suzy123 · 23/08/2009 22:22

Thought id share my story - this opens old wounds. My first child born prematurely (placenta abruption) and could not bf him. Tried everything; bought special pillow as nurses advised, tried every position but still to no avail. I expected breastfeeding to come naturally, i was fully prepared to do, not embarrassed in any way, but didnt happen. Nurses kept banging on about breastfeeding, my baby was crying constantly and i felt like a failure. My sister came to visit, (older and already a mum) took one look at my son and said hes starving. I told her about not being able to feed him and how he was losing weight and she said shall i get you a bottle....and the relief flooded through me. I could not have asked for it myself because of the disapproving looks of the nurses, tho this is what i wanted and my sister knew this. Thank God she was there. After that my son thrived and we were able to leave hospital. It was the worst experience of my life and i didnt want to repeat it. With my 2nd child i tried again, but when didnt work, i went to ff, without a second thought. With my 3rd child i went straight to ff. I do not feel at all guilty that i ff my children. It was the best for them and they are all perfectly healthy. My sister was able to breastfeed her children successfully, I couldnt. At the time i felt like an absolute failure. However looking back now, i cant believe how much stress i went thru at what was supposed to be such a joyous time. Whatever mums decide, whether bf/ff its your choice and if you choose/have to ff, then why feel guilty, just enjoy this special time with your baby.

sabire · 23/08/2009 23:20

Suzy123, I'm sorry you had such a fraught time with your first and second babies. I also struggled to establish breastfeeding with my first but did eventually crack it once I got home (took quite a few weeks before it was comfortable).

I appreciate what you are saying about not feeling guilty and enjoying your baby, but in my case I chose to breastfeed, and this is what I wanted for me and my baby. I would have been gutted and furious if I had been forced to bottlefeed because of inept or inadequate breastfeeding support in hospital, just as someone who wanted to bottlefeed would have a right to feel unhappy if they were denied access to bottles and formula, and forced to breastfeed instead. Guilt is not the issue - I would have felt angry and cheated and I would have had a right to feel that way.

Suzy123 · 24/08/2009 00:28

I agree, hospitals should provide support for women and respect their decision no matter whether they ff or bf their newborn. When i had my first 11 years ago, nurses promoted bf alone and i wasnt given the option of bottle feeding, so in effect i too was forced, tho at the time i only felt my own guilt and failure.

moondog · 24/08/2009 06:17

Suzy, how long were you in hospital for? If you wanted to bottlefeed, I'm assuming you switched to that as soon as yuo got home.It's very easy to switch from breast to bottle. Unfortunatetely its damn near impossible yo switch from bottle to breast as you probably know so they are not really comparable situations.

A woman who leaves hospital having been 'forced' {not sure of that one myself} to breastfeed can change straight away.
A woman who leaves hospital bottlefeeding or not really confident about her breastfeeding and already messing about with formula [because some numpty has told her to 'top up' or 'wait until the milk comes in'} and wanting to continue breastfeeding, has already been compromised quite seriously.

Sakura · 24/08/2009 07:04

Pennybubbly,
I just read your reply to my post about Japan. Our experiences have been so extremely different that I apologize for assuming that my case was the norm. I had both my babies here in a midwife clinic where there was not a bottle in sight. I have attended numerous mother and baby groups where everyone I met breastfed. I was embarrased to with my first baby but all the women I met there encouraged me. I literally do not know anyone who bottle feeds. Anyone who had trouble breastfeeding went for traditional Japanese "breast massage" (sounds dubious but it is basically women who are expert in getting all the clots out of your breasts and making sure not of the milk clogs up). I do know that formula is pushed here in hospitals (as it is in most places- we all know formula companies "soft sell" through hospitals by providing equipment). But the women I have spoken to here who gave birth in hospital still breastfed and got the support they needed to do so from family and these breast clinics I`ve just mentioned.

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