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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

'why bottle might be better than breast' - GMTV this morning

409 replies

babyignoramus · 19/08/2009 08:15

Hasn't even been shown yet but can't imagine it's going to go down too well here!!!!

Anyone else going to watch - it's going to annoy the arse off me but I can't seem to tear my eyes away......

OP posts:
sabire · 21/08/2009 10:39

"I personally think socio-economic factors plays more a part in development more than just BF or FF ..... yet in the BF and FF debate other factors for increased health and achievement of potential are rarely mentioned."

As has been mentioned several times on this thread in response to this sort of speculation - the research into the health issues connected to infant feeding does 'control' for social class, age and education, among a range of factors.

"despite some emotional arguments to the contrary, it isn't actually poisonous".

I have never heard anyone arguing that formula is akin to 'poison', only that there are risks associated with using it - a view which is supported by all reputable medical bodies, including the NHS and the Royal College of Midwives. Suggesting that people who hold this view are promoting the idea that formula is 'poison' is unfair - it polarises the argument in a way which is very unhelpful.

"I think you can acknowledge that bf is best but not accept that ff is putting your child at risk.The height argument is just daft.A non processed organic pure diet is also the ideal but I am sure there are many healthy thriving children who are not fed this way"

So breastfeeding is the equivalent of a 'pure organic diet'?

It's not you know! Here - this explains it better than I can myself. It's from an essay by Diane Wessienger.

Do you understand the point she is making about not using ff as the 'standard' against which bf is measured? When medicine uses the biological norm as the standard, why on earth do we distort the issue by doing something completely opposite with ff and bf?:

"When we (and the artificial milk manufacturers) say that breastfeeding is the best possible way to feed babies because it provides their ideal food, perfectly balanced for optimal infant nutrition, the logical response is, "So what?" Our own experience tells us that optimal is not necessary. Normal is fine, and implied in this language is the absolute normalcyand thus safety and adequacyof artificial feeding.

The truth is, breastfeeding is nothing more than normal. Artificial feeding, which is neither the same nor superior, is therefore deficient, incomplete, and inferior. Those are difficult words, but they have an appropriate place in our vocabulary.

When we talk about the advantages of breastfeedingthe "lower rates" of cancer, the "reduced risk" of allergies, the "enhanced" bonding, the "stronger" immune systemwe reinforce bottlefeeding yet again as the accepted, acceptable norm.

Health comparisons use a biological, not cultural, norm, whether the deviation is harmful or helpful. Smokers have higher rates of illness; increasing prenatal folic acid may reduce fetal defects. Because breastfeeding is the biological norm, breastfed babies are not "healthier;" artificially-fed babies are ill more often and more seriously. Breastfed babies do not "smell better;" artificial feeding results in an abnormal and unpleasant odor that reflects problems in an infant's gut. We cannot expect to create a breastfeeding culture if we do not insist on a breastfeeding model of health in both our language and our literature.

We must not let inverted phrasing by the media and by our peers go unchallenged. When we fail to describe the hazards of artificial feeding, we deprive mothers of crucial decision-making information. The mother having difficulty with breastfeeding may not seek help just to achieve a "special bonus;" but she may clamor for help if she knows how much she and her baby stand to lose. She is less likely to use artificial milk just "to get him used to a bottle" if she knows that the contents of that bottle cause harm.

Nowhere is the comfortable illusion of bottlefed normalcy more carefully preserved than in discussions of cognitive development. When I ask groups of health professionals if they are familiar with the study on parental smoking and IQ (1), someone always tells me that the children of smoking mothers had "lower IQs." When I ask about the study of premature infants fed either human milk or artificial milk (2), someone always knows that the breastmilk-fed babies were "smarter." I have never seen either study presented any other way by the media--or even by the authors themselves. Even health professionals are shocked when I rephrase the results using breastfeeding as the norm: the artificially-fed children, like children of smokers, had lower IQs.

Inverting reality becomes even more misleading when we use percentages, because the numbers change depending on what we choose as our standard. If B is 3/4 of A, then a is 4/3 of B. Choose A as the standard, and B is 25% less. Choose B as the standard, and A is 33 1/3% more. Thus, if an item costing 100 units is put on sale for "25% less,"the price becomes 75. When the sale is over, and the item is marked back up, it must be marked up 33 1/3% to get the price up to 100. Those same figures appear in a recent study (3), which found a "25% decrease" in breast cancer rates among women who were breastfed as infants. Restated using breastfed health as the norm, there was a 33-1/3% increase in breast cancer rates among women who were artificially fed. Imagine the different impact those two statements would have on the public. "

*

And people don't get appropriate help with either bf or ff because postnatal care is generally crap in this country. There is major understaffing in both hospitals and in the community which results in women getting incomplete information and support in all things, not just in baby feeding.

Midwives who imply that they can't talk to mothers about ff because of hospital policy on bf are simply not doing their jobs properly - there is no government push to stop hospitals giving out the information that women need to ff their babies safely - only to discourage midwives from giving routine demonstrations of making up feeds to groups of parents antenatally, firstly because it's ineffectual as parents don't retain the information well enough and secondly because it normalises bottlefeeding in away which is very demotivating for those who wish to breastfeed.

Pawsandclaws · 21/08/2009 11:21

What about those who have an mental blocks against BF? Or feel embarrassed about doing it? Not a popular point of discussion, but it does exist. I think this is as big a stumbling block to BF as not getting a correct latch etc, but the emotional or mental side of BF isn't really addressed much as far as I have seen.

There are those who feel uncomfortable with BF in front of certain family members or friends, or in public. Yes you can go somewhere private, but if you are happy to BF in front of your MIL but not your BIL or FIL then to go somewhere else just because they have walked in the room, is akin to suugesting you think they will be enjoying the spectacle in a dubious fashion.

Explaining "it's not you, it's me" in those circs is difficult. I'm sure some people will say that it's about whats best for the baby rather than how comfortable you feel doing it, but that's not going to suddenly make someone feel good about it, infact it's likely to make them feel more guilty.

Apart from the logistics of getting baby to latch on properly, I feel that other helpful measure would be to openly address the topic and measure to improve how people might feel about BF such as the availability of discreet nursing tops; what to do if you feel uncomfortable BF in front of friends/family, and how to arrange muslins or wraps to best effect to provide cover.

mathshoneybunny27 · 21/08/2009 11:28

weegiemum what a difficult but ultimately inspirational story

I wish it could have been like that for me with DD1. As it was, the struggle to bf just compounded the PND - it was just one more thing I was shit at

noddyholder · 21/08/2009 11:36

I wasn't comparing it to an organic diet I was saying there are choices in parnting in all areas.I do see Bf as normal and FF as an alternative.But I will never see it as risky.I know many BF children who have obviously been given the bestv start nutrition wise but I would question the rest of their parenting.There is a lot more involved in producing a healthy well rounded individual than how they were fed in the first 6 months.FF should not be demonised as for some there is no other choice.

Olifin · 21/08/2009 11:51

mathshoneybunny

I don't think anyone could disagree that you made the right choice for YOU under YOUR circumstances.

There are bound to be lots of aspects of parenting that you aren't at all shit at; but I know it's hard to see that when you're in the thick of it. BFing isn't the be-all and end-all, is it?

coldasanewrazorblade · 21/08/2009 12:05

noddy, it is risky. Babies who aren't bf are more likely to suffer ear and respiratory infections and gastroenteritis. This isn't just about avoiding obesity in later life or a handful of extra IQ points, it's about a higher risk of hospitalisation in newborns.

BF isn't the only, or even the most important thing we do for our children.
For some ff is the right choice.
But acting like it isn't important at all won't help anyone.

AvrilH · 21/08/2009 12:31

coldasanewrazorblade - there are risks to everything. My DD was in intensive care as a result of my choosing to breastfeed, in the absence of decent support. There may be neurological impairment as a result. Another bf baby I know was hospitalised due to dehydration.

I would have been better off had I chosen to FF from the begining. Though I am proud of breastfeeding successfully.

peanut08 · 21/08/2009 12:38

Pawsandclaws, thankyou for your last post. This is exactly the situation I was in. For me BF went against all my instincts it wasn't that I couldn't do it I just didn't want to and this was something I wasn't prepared for (I come from a very pro BF family) I felt like a freak for feeling this way and as you said this side of BF is never addressed.

StealthPolarBear · 21/08/2009 13:31

AvrilH, so in your case ff would have been better. That just emphasises the need to take each case individually. But when people are looking at things from a population level (promotion etc) then bf is still best. Examples to the contrary do not change that on the whole the population would be healthier if bf rates improved.

AvrilH · 21/08/2009 13:36

SBB, agree, but just wanted to highlight that are risks with every decision we make as parents.

FF vs BF is the first real decision we have to make. I think that is partly why it is so emotional, we have to accept that we can't eliminate risk, and with hindsight, our decision might not have been the best one.

charleymouse · 21/08/2009 13:51

Avril
your statement read to me as though you would have been better off choosing to BF from the start and given the necessary support. Not you would have been better off choosing to FF from the begining.
The other BF baby you refer to was probably in the same boat, lack of adequate support for BF.

It is natural and should be the most natural thing to do but it is difficult, many people need help/support/guidance. It is not always there.

I agree to a certain extent Happy Mummy = Happy Baby.
For many Mums I know their short term discomfort with BF which is immediately relieved by changing to FF has ended up with long term unhappy Mummy and guilty Mummy for not persevering as at the time, (lack of sleep, under pressure from HCP/family, grizzly baby) they were offered an easy solution which was as "good as BF" so took it. It was only after with hindsight that they had regretted their decision.

Women need to know the benefits/risks with BF & FF and have the appropriate support from trained people to enable them to feed their babies effectively for them. It is a personal choice but often an uninfomred choice and a choice made under pressure from external influences.

swallowedAfly · 21/08/2009 14:07

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swallowedAfly · 21/08/2009 14:09

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AvrilH · 21/08/2009 14:21

"no paeds aren't massively trained on breastfeeding, frankly they have better things to be doing ..."

They need to have sufficient training to give sensible advice to breastfeeding mothers of sick babies. DD's paediatrician put me under addtional pressure by telling me that 'breastfeeding is especially important for her", and to "feed her on a three hourly routine". The paediatric nurses said the nappy change and feed must take no longer than half an hour in total.

It is also important for paediatricians to be able to tell if failure to latch is symptomatic of some other problem.

charleymouse · 21/08/2009 14:26

No demanding 'lactation consultants' might not be a realistic or ethical thing to do. Although demanding clean drinking water in your own home might seem outrageous to some African women who have to walk miles wto a well. You can not realy compare them.

However, ensuring effective support for Mums postnatally is realistic and ethical. It should be provided as a matter of right.

BF has many benefits not just for the babies. Mums have many benefits as well. These are often overlooked.

www.llli.org/NB/NBJulAug01p124.html

"Non-breastfeeding mothers have been shown in numerous studies to have a higher risk of reproductive cancers. Ovarian and uterine cancers have been found to be more common in women who did not breastfeed." From above link.

mathshoneybunny27 · 21/08/2009 14:32

Olifin - I have learnt this due to DD2! She's a little angel who breastfeeds beautifully - so maybe DD1 wasn't all my fault

sabire · 21/08/2009 14:37

Agree with you completely Charleymouse, re avril and re long term emotional fall out from stopping breastfeeding earlier than planned.

noddyholder - formula is not 'demonised'.

It's a commercial product and parents have the right to know before they buy it and feed it to their child, that study after study after study have consistently shown its use to be connected with higher rates of hospital admission in babies.

sabire · 21/08/2009 14:48

"frankly they have better things to be doing like saving the lives of massively premature babies or those seriously ill children who really need their help"

swallowedafly - I went to a study day on breastfeeding premature babies run by BLISS a few months ago. The main speaker was a senior paediatrician from St Georges in London, who made a long speech about the vital importance of bf for premature babies. He described breastmilk as 'literally life-saving' for many prem babies, and told the audience that in the unit he works in they encourage parents to see breastmilk as 'medicine'. I'd also want to point out to you that according to the RCM, it's likely that about 100 premature babies a year die from a lack of breastmilk - generally from necrotising enterocolitis which is 15 times higher in prem babies who only have formula.

You seem to be unable to accept that there will be children in every hospital who are there because they haven't been breastfed. That's the reality - respitory illness and gastro-enteritis are the most common reasons for hospital admission for children and babies, and they are MUCH higher in ff babies.

It's not just theory and abstract statistics you know - these are real babies with real illnesses that they needn't have had, and of course real parents who are put through unbearable stress when their babies are hospitalised.

sabire · 21/08/2009 14:50

And can you quit with the refences to 'judging' and 'bashing'. This is an important health issue that we owe it to babies to take seriously, not a lifestyle issue or one of competitive parenting.

noddyholder · 21/08/2009 15:24

God here we go again

Olifin · 21/08/2009 15:27

'if people are that bothered why not go train or volunteer yourself as a peer support person on your local maternity ward?'

swalloedafly I think a lot of us are. I am a voluntary peer supporter and I recall someone else earlier on the thread saying they were one. There are loads in my town and probably quite a few are MNers! I think all of the women who do it are people who have enjoyed BFing (albeit having struggled with it in many cases) and who regard it as impotant and want to support others to succeed at and enjoy it. There are plenty of us out here who are walking the walk as well as talking the talk, for want of a better expression!

gypsymoon · 21/08/2009 17:15

sabire I think you have been nothing but informative, reasonable, non-judgemental and compassionate.

I've been reading this thread with some interest and to be honest shock since the beginning - I think I commented a while back, but it's been so long I don't know anymore.

I have bf both my daughters DD1 until she was almost 4 and still bf DD2 and pregnant with DC3 whom I fully intend to bf. Some might say I am an experienced and perhaps knowledgeable bfer. You have posted information that I have found incredibly interesting and believe that it was never offered in a 'bullying' fashion. I congratulate and admire you for your passion about this issue and your determination to educate. Some people I'm afraid have already made up their minds and will not listen, but please don't stop. Coming from someone who loves bfing , but has always been quiet about her feelings on the matter, I look forward to your next post as the manner in which you inform is a pleasure to read and I wish there were more people like you trying to increase the rates of bfing in this country.

Thatsnotmyfairy · 21/08/2009 19:16

I've lurked on this thread since it started, but didn't have the time (or expertise) to join it properly and I just wanted to agree 100% with everything Gypsymoon's just said. Thanks Sabire

drosophila · 21/08/2009 19:23

As a funny aside my nipples were too big for the pump machine when dd was in special care unit. The breast feeding counsellor was at a loss.

Kissmybooty · 21/08/2009 22:05

I would love someone to do some really in-depth research on all(as many as possible) aspects of the pros/cons of both. As we tend to forget why formula was introduced in the first place. A shame really