'why bottle might be better than breast' - GMTV this morning

[babyignoramus]

Hasn't even been shown yet but can't imagine it's going to go down too well here!!!!

Anyone else going to watch - it's going to annoy the arse off me but I can't seem to tear my eyes away......

Upsylazy, What a shocking story the poor baby and mother but personally as someone who has suffered severe PND and a complete breakdown over trying to BF it doesn't suprise me.
In most cases women who choose to BF find it a rewarding and very special experience for them and their baby which is great but what if you don't? This is something that is never discussed by MW or HV. Child abuse?
I did not want to put my second child through what my DD experienced (although she was very tiny) as that would be child abuse and so I chose to bottle feed. In my situation mine and my baby's safety and well being outweighed the benefits of BF.

Olifin - the lowest c-section rates and highest bottlefeeding rates are found in women having their first baby under the age of 25. As maternal age increases so do rates of both c-section and breastfeeding.

But you do have to look at it the other way as well ....

I have had serious PND with 3 children ( over 3 postnatal episodes I have had 5 serious suicide attempts).

The only thing that kept me going - (including when I was hospitalised with dc1) was the breastfeeding.

I felt I was a shit mother. I had real bonding issues. I struggled to feel anything for my babies. I carried hem for 9 months - which involved serious sickness issues with dd1 and 2, and a very serious kidnet condition which meant I spent much of my 2nd and 3rd prenancies in hospital. And for months afterwards.

Through all of this, I fought and struggled to breastfeed. I fed dd1 for a year, ds for 15 months, dd2 for 2 years.

I don't want to make anyone feel bad - but those numbers are my proudest achievement as a mother. I was shit. I was unable to feel love for them. Everything I did, and with dd2, it was for about a year, and then it all deteriorated again when she was 17 months old and I only stayed at home due to intensive home care from a psych team, was cos it was what I was "supposed" to so.

Breastfeeding was what I did. I was good at it. Sometimes I could hardly change a nappy - I certainly couldn;'t get myself showered and dressed - but I could feed, in the best way possible.

I know all the benefits - I have posted about them. And have benefitted - my kids are happy and healthy.

But bf also saved my sanity - by letting me do something that was good for my babies when nothing else was going well.

"there is a lactation consultant at the local hospital who positively promotes the view that FF is child abuse"

What - really?

"so if a mother is struggling with BF to the point where it's actually making her depressed, she is probably doing what's in her baby's beat interest by FF."

And what about the women who struggle with bf emotionally and/or physically who give up and then become depressed because they are grieving for the breastfeeding relationship that they've lost? I know many people who've experienced this. Looking after a baby is hard. Breastfeeding can be very hard and if it's not working it can make you depressed. But for every mum who is struggling who gives up because it's making her depressed, there'll be another whose depression lifts when she gets to grip with her breastfeeding problems and overcomes them. You really can't make a rule which says 'if you're struggling emotionally with bf you're better off ff' because it doesn't work like that for everyone.

In any case the argument that bf is responsible for a a huge amount of pnd doesn't really sit comfortably with the facts. Postnatal depression is actually highest in societies with the lowest rates of breastfeeding, and there is some evidence that children who are breastfed have - as a group - better mental health in childhood than children who are bottlefed (and this is from good quality research conducted in Australia - a country where women have just as many difficulties bf as women do here).

As for the rest of your argument - what rubbish. Even the most ardent bf advocate knows that not bf a child isn't a 'catastrophe' or akin to child abuse. You are ascribing emotions and beliefs to bf advocates that they don't hold and have never expressed. Really those sorts of argument tactics are so manipulative and underhand.

I read half the thread but couldn't make it through the whole thing. I just get stunned at the posters who say words to the effect of "I acknowledge breastmilk is better but have seen no evidence that formula is worse"

It's like arguing "I accept that you are taller than me but it is nonsense, indeed offensive madam, to suggest I am shorter than you"

I'd actually respect someone more who argued that they didn't believe there were any benefits to bf. You can at least engage in a debate with that. I'd prefer to see a standpoint of reasonable ignorance than one of willful stupidity.

Sakura "I live in a country where BF is the norm. On a recent visit to the UK with my newborn I found it quite unbelieveable that no-one was breastfeeding in public and lots of people were formula feeding. On the way back home I sat next to a couple from Spain on the plane who asked me outright "Why don`t people breastfeed in Britain?". "WHere do you breastfeed?" "In SPain everyone does it outside on the street."

Sakura, your post made me laugh out-loud.
I too live in Japan. A country where, straight after delivery, I was presented with a "gift" from the hospital of a bag of goodies, all of which were merchandise from a well-known formula manufacturer. They included the new revolutionary "tablet"-style formulas and a bottle. "BF is the norm"?? Laugh my socks off!
On day 2, I was sitting on the edge of my bed, tears STREAMING down my face in pain as I tried to bf my DS. I had already called 3 different midwives to ask for help - one gave me 'advice' from the door without even looking at how ds was latched on.
Another squeezed my boob (EXCRUCIATING) and said "mmm, no milk yet". Of COURSE there was no milk yet, he'd been born less than 24 hours before.
I persisted with the bf and despite my ds passing the meconium and producing normal poo (something that my non-Japanese lactation consultant told me is a sure sign the milk is through and the first time I felt I was doing the right thing by my baby), yet more midwives told me on day 4 that if he didn't gain more weight, then they would have to top him up with formula. Over my dead body.
PLEASE don't fool yourself that BF is the norm here. I've lost count of the number of J mums who have looked in awe and said "wow! you're STILL breastfeeding? I didn't have enough milk, so I stopped." Yes, you didn't have enough milk probably because you were encouraged by the so-called professionals to mixed-feed from the start.
Only last week I had a group of Japanese mums discussing me and the fact that I was breast-feeding my son in public (he's 20months and we were in a kids play-area). They were completely unaware that I understood ever word of their rude judgemental comments btw.

As for the Spain comment, I visited my DB and his Spanish wife last year (in Spain). I was discreetly bfeeding my DS under a huge shawl-like thing I always use in an outside cafe, and attracted not only the comments of the waiter, but also the constant stares and SHOUTS of the elderly man sitting nearby. "BREASTFEEDING? GO ON! GET THEM OUT!".

And yet, funnily enough, not a single word or comment from anyone in the UK during my 2 month stay last summer....

Oops, meant to add that on Day 2, as I sat in pain and in tears trying to bfeed DS, there came a knock at my door and before I could answer, in came the FORMULA REP to promote her formula.
I actually turned my back to her as I was trying (unsuccessfully) to get DS to latch on. Had I not been in my post-partum state of tearful distress, I would have told her where to stick her samples.
BF is the norm in Japan is it?

That's fascinating Pennybubbly, well done you for bfing against all the pressure not to!

Thank you sabire, I couldn't understand that statistic at first but it makes sense now!

time to explore other threads as my head is so filled up with statistics...

thank you vlc!! I've been trying to come up with an argument like that all along!
If you accept breastfeeding has benefits then you are by definition accepting that formula feeding has downsides.

weegiemum - I think breastfeeding probably saved my sanity too. My DD was tiny, after a complicated pregnancy for which I blamed myself. My hospital stay after having her was traumatic, with one evil bully of a nurse in the paediatric unit actively trying to undermine me and make me feel a failure as a mother (telling me how much better she coped with twins etc, tormenting me until I was in tears, and not stopping).

Breastfeeding actually worked. It was agony for me (mastitis, thrush, mastitis, thrush) but I could finally do something good for the frail baby I was struggling to bond with, and she thrived.

I think some FF mothers assume that BFers get extra advice, time and care. I both FF and BF during a long hospital stay, My hospital did not provide adequate support with either.

PennyBubbly That's really interesting (and infuriating, of course!) and I guess it could be a regional thing. I've never been to Japan so don't have any first-hand experience but I recently met an extended BFer (tandem feeding a 4 year-old and 1 year-old) who was married to a Japanese man and had been living in Japan. She said she'd received a lot of support and that most of the Japanese she'd met were very supportive of her extended BFing. I don't know where she was living but it's a shame your experience was not like that.

I'm another one who found BFing essential during my PND.

weegiemum I'm resisting the urge to give you a cyber hug as I know it's not the 'done thing' on MD Just to say that I can identify with so much of what you say. I, too, have been a sh*t mum and being able to BF felt really important through all of that.

I agree with all those who say as long as baby is healthy, it doesn't matter how they are fed. I was desperate to feed my baby myself but couldn't. I was made to feel like a complete failure by the midwifes at the hospital.
I had to put my baby on a bottle and she has thrived on it! She is now 17 months old and has no problems at all.
I still feel guilty about not being able to feed, and that guild comes from listening to all the do-gooders out there that think they know best. Spare a thought for those of us who were unable to breast feed and how you make us feel.
Rant over!

To clarify - I left the hospital FF and got BF established afterwards, so I saw both sides. And some HVs are wonderful

olifin - know exactly what you mean about being able to bf through pnd, did so with ds1 though not for as long as i would liked. Felt like i was a completely shite mother but the bfing was a real positive.

olifin - know exactly what you mean about being able to bf through pnd, did so with ds1 though not for as long as i would liked. Felt like i was a completely shite mother but the bfing was a real positive.

Fletch I'm sorry you weren't able to BF when you wanted to. I would say though, that you feel the way you feel; no-one can make you feel anything. I think most posters on this thread are trying to examine the reasons why people do and don't BF and discussing the benefits and risks of each. No-one is pointing the finger at individual women and suggesting they should or shouldn't have BF.

I think you can acknowledge that bf is best but not accept that ff is putting your child at risk.The height argument is just daft.A non processed organic pure diet is also the ideal but I am sure there are many healthy thriving children who are not fed this way.I for one believe that smacking children is wrong and there is never a defence for it but there are those who say it has done them no harm and who am I to argue?This is one subject on here which never ends well and i think now unless this topic is used as a way to help those in either camp establish a way to feed which suits them the sniping arguments accusing FF of putting their guilt onto BF mothers are insulting and pointless

Why can't we accept that breastmilk may be the best nutritionally but that in the cases where the mother for whatever reason cannot BF then FF is really the only alternative and despite some emotional arguments to the contrary, it isn't actually poisonous.

I personally think socio-economic factors plays more a part in development more than just BF or FF, ie expectations of achievement, encouragement to exercise, quality of subsequent diet, availability of resources such as tutoring and educated parents who can help with homework and projects. BF alone does not compensate for lack of the above yet in the BF and FF debate other factors for increased health and achievement of potential are rarely mentioned.

If a baby is to be FF for whatever reason then a mother should be shown how to correctly make up a bottle according to current guidelines. There have been quite a few threads on here where people have been completely unaware of why the water has to be above a certain temperature before mixing with powder as if it's the water, not the powder, which is harbouring bacteria.

So despite the guidelines and instructions on the packet people still get it wrong. This might be because the drive is so hard on BF that it is taboo to ask for direction for FF, which is what I think the MW on GMTV is saying.

Thing is fletch many women find bfeeding for the first few days very hard as milk doesnt come in. It is the lack of support and education to all women that needs to be addressed. With ds1 i had emer cs and stuck on a breast pump 1 day post op by a witch of a midwife who also can ds a ff feed via a cup without asking or letting us know she was going to. Despite her I persisted. It irritated the mw's (or so it seemed) to have to keep helping me latch him on and would have been easier for them if i had ff but i hadnt had the birth expereience i had so hoped for niavely (was first born). And i was determined to give ds this. It isnt that it was easy to do to begin with and yes i got mastitis and sore bleeding nipples at one point, but would i change it? Nope. Now ds2 is 19 months and bfing him, though not always easy, is still still fantastic.

I think the risks of the manner of making up formula have to be weighed up - for a perfectly healthy 7 month old, adding the powder to a bottle of water that has cooled may be perfectly reasonable given low risks. For a 7 day old, the risks will be higher and the same consideration might have a different outcome.

"Why can't we accept that breastmilk may be the best nutritionally but that in the cases where the mother for whatever reason cannot BF then FF is really the only alternative and despite some emotional arguments to the contrary, it isn't actually poisonous."
No-one on this thread has said formula is poisonous. If they have, they're mad. It is the only adequate substitute to breastmilk.

"I personally think socio-economic factors plays more a part in development more than just BF or FF, ie expectations of achievement, encouragement to exercise, quality of subsequent diet, availability of resources such as tutoring and educated parents who can help with homework and projects. BF alone does not compensate for lack of the above yet in the BF and FF debate other factors for increased health and achievement of potential are rarely mentioned."
You may be right. But studies into the "benefits" of breastmilk and breastfeeding control for these factors. No-one is saying breastmilk is a miracle worker.

"If a baby is to be FF for whatever reason then a mother should be shown how to correctly make up a bottle according to current guidelines."
Definitely!

noddyholder, do you not see that if you redefine breastfeeding from "best" to "normal" (which phsiologically it is) then formula carries downsides in comparison?