to expect my son aged 11 to be asleep at this hour?

[TheLadyEvenstar]

forget all other posts i have put up they are irrelevant.

I have made plans to take him to the coast tomorrow with his friend her mum myself and ds2.

So at 9 i asked him to go to bed and allowed him to watch a film. I just went to put ds2 into his bed (he goes to sleep on sofa and i transfer him when i go to bed) and find ds1 still awake, but him thinking he is smarter than me closes his portable dvd player down when he hears me coming up hallway.

I have removed the dvd player and am seriously doubting going tomorrow, because

1- i cannot go to bed until he is asleep
2- he will be hard to get up in the morning
3- he will be a total grump all day because he is tired
4- he has just told me to get lost and get out of his life...all i said is you have lost your dvd player until you learn not to the mickey out of me. (and i did not even argue i walked away, ok sounds silly but i am proud of myself!)

I didn't know there was a history here until just the other day.

Looking at this thread alone and partly coloured by the other thread (can only just remember it, something about a knife and fork) I'd say this if I were working with your family.

He doesn't respect you because he knows you can't control him. You are in a cycle of him needing you to control him and to focus less on how he makes YOU feel and him making it ever harder for you to achieve that. This is extreme boundary pushing. You have become the child here, resentful towards your son in the same way a child resents his parents for controlling their life in ways they'd rather not. He's making yours a misery and you scarcely manage to disguis that.

You ooze anger and resentment simultaneously with disappointment and sorrow for not having managed to get this sitution under control for his sake and yours.

It's not worth asking why your other child is allowed to fall asleep on the sofa or why you did not check that your ds was asleep if you feel it best that he is not awake past midnight...

You need to draw a line that neither of you cross again, and have agreements in place for if that happens. Agreements that reflect the value of mutual respect that you will rediscover of one another.

Talk to him.

Hobb, (i don't remember a thread about a knife and fork unless you mean me cutting his food up?)

I don't focus on how he makes me feel the whole point is i am concerned about how the lack of sleep will make HIM feel and thats the issue here. I was not discussing anything else.

I would agree to an extent that in some ways i have become the child but i will strongly disagree i resent him because i dont in anyway. I do not hide it, although tonight i have done a good job at it!

You ooze anger and resentment simultaneously with disappointment and sorrow for not having managed to get this sitution under control for his sake and yours...

This is so wrong, I am not angry - upset at times yes, resentment - nope not at all, disappointment - at times, sorrow - no why should i be sorrowful?

DS2 is a baby and is allowed to go to sleep on the sofa because ds1 disturbs him if i put him to bed no other reason.

I did check on him and he was laying in his bed eyes shut etc that was at 10pm, dp went to bed at 10.30 and ds1 was still "asleep" only he wasn't he was pretending.

If only you actually knew how often i try to talk to him....

I dunno LadyE, only you know, of course. But I was prepared to stick my neck out and make some bold observations.

It was the cutting up food thread, yes.

Resentment was more re. the situation. And, do you not feel sorrow and remorse at where you are both at?

When he says all that crap back at you when you talk to him, what do you say?

I think you need to search really hard within yourself and him for the answers here because you have them you really do. We all do. 'Professionals' merely help us to see them.

Think about what blinds us from the 'obvious' is all I can say.

Do feel for you, honest.

Hobb, we had a long talk today with professional here, and ds1 did not tell him in so many words that he is playing a game. Whatever his words were, when ds1 and ds2 went out of room professional told me what he had found out from ds1 in their chat...and basically he is playing this game of how to wind mummy up iyswim? A prime example was after he ate his dinner last night i went out the room came back and in the 2 minutes i was out he had scoffed my dinner down....because he thought it would wind me up. He was out of luck there...i ordered a chow mein instead. LOL. But do you see these are the kind of things he does hence reason i am proud i didn't react tonight other than to take dvd away.

TheLadyEvenstar, I think you mentioned on another thread that he has problems getting to sleep?

Both myself and my DS (10) tend to insomnia - why else would I be MNing at this ungodly hour - and are experimenting with different strategies to deal with it. One of the things recommended is to reserve your bedroom purely for sleeping - no TV in the room etc. It might be worth a shot. My DS is often awake when I go in to check him at night, sometimes 2 hours after he went to bed. I encourage him to go through a conscious relaxing of the body, starting at the toes and working his way up. Not sure if it helps TBH, but at least we feel we're trying! Sometimes I've climbed the stairs to see the bedside light being switched off, he's been reading purely because he's bored just lying there. It might not be defiance, just bored of the dark. But, still a good idea to not have a screen in the bedroom as may stimulate and prolong wakefulness rather than soothe to sleep. Perhaps presenting it as an insomnia strategy rather than a punishment for being awake so late might defuse his reaction?

Yes he will be tired tomorrow, but it would be a shame for everyone else if going to the coast were cancelled at such short notice.

Yes, I do see that.

I think you'll need to go over these interractions with a fine tooth comb in order to ensure that he doesn't consider a non-reaction to be a 'giving in' sign. I take it you have ways of addressing the poor behaviour without rising to him and his 'game'?

He's very focussed on belittling you isn't he? What's your response to that? I mean, why do you think that's important to him and how do you feel about that?

I wouldn't go tomorrow. If he is playing games and trying to wind you up, one way of letting him know who really is in charge is to refuse to go.

You will have a tough day though. He won't be happy and he will be tired too.

He has to learn who is in charge. Don't discuss it. Tell him why he isn't going (your 4 reasons above) and leave it at that.

But no you are NBU to expect him to be asleep. My DS1 (9 yrs old) is increasingly difficult to get to sleep at a decent time which is why I clicked on your thread although I don't think the issues are the same. However, I completely understand what a pain in the butt they are when they are tired!

Where, its not so much as he has problems getting to sleep in as much as refusing to sleep, he can be falling asleep in the living room but as soon as you say bed...well hell arrives.

Hobb, There is a Child psychologist who visits us weekly, because ds refused to go to hospital to see him. And he has given me strategies...for example ds kicks off...i ignore it and make a coffee...sounds so silly and it is but fingers x'd.

Having had a long talk with CP minus ds1 and ds2 we kind of reached the conclusion through what ds had said...that his reasons for this were his early years experience, his social skills are brilliant - if you are an adult or disabled or much younger than him...he needs to be needed if that makes sense? His early experiences of life were his sperm donor father being very violent towards me....we think this is the reason he is the way he is towards me...because it is all directed at me, the one person who has always been there. And tbh i am torn up inside.

It sounds really tough.

There is truth in the saying about only hurting the ones we love. He is treating you badly partly because you have always been there for him but he still needs to test you to see if you will stick by him. You have to both help him to see that you will be there for him but also let him know that the way he is behaving is not acceptable but I am sure the CP will know much more about that than me.

I think ignoring him is a good idea too but it must be damn hard.

My DS doesn't have trouble getting to sleep by the way. He just doesn't want to so he doesn't. I don't think he is deliberately testing us though - I just think there are other things he would rather be doing (reading, listing to story CD's playing his DS). He doesn't have the maturity to realise that he will be the one to suffer in the morning when he is knackered and grumpy.

Mind you, looking at the clock, I am not much better myself.

Message withdrawn

God you must be knackered!!! If my 2 aren't in bed by 930 latest even in the hols I get irritated as hell. It sounds so hard for you, I hope things improve.

MissSunny you are 100% right, he does dictate to me....I do feel for ds2 and as much as some may flame me, more than ds1. DS1 is old enough to express how he feels, ds2 is still very much a baby at 23m old iyswim? and although he can tell me he is hungry, he cannot explain he is tired/fed up with the hassle/upset etc. The problem now is as you say he will not settle in his own bed.

On my other thread I had people flaming me, telling me this was all my own fault, i allowed it to happen, that i was a bully, uncaring, negative, focusing on the bad. But the problem is as i tried to explain, the bad seriously outweigh the good. For example yesterday i made these arrangements with his school friend, her mum and her nan...all people he gets on with, likes spending time with etc. So in return I got him moaning he never has fun and then refusing to go to sleep.

I woke up at 6.30 this morning groannnnnnnnn and at 7.15 i woke him up...I never asked him to stay up until 1.30, so before anyone says i am evil doing that...that was the time we were getting up to go out...only difference is we are not going.

The reason i can't go to bed is if heis awake he will get up raid food cupboards, put tv on, rummage through cupboards and drawers and basically wander round all night.

Junglist1, i am knackered...i must get through 20-30 cups of coffee a day when he is at his worst....

if your not going out why did you wake him up?
you are just making the day shit for yourself because he'll be so tired
and did you punish him when he ate your dinner? no pudding etc?

i think you need to inject some fun back into the relationship
take him to the park and kick a ball about
tell him if he goes to bed at nine tonight tomorrow you can all go to pizza hut or something fun

BigChris, by normal practise if we all have a late night then i leave him to sleep. However he refused to go to sleep and in 2 weeks he is starting secondary school, he needs to know that no matter how late he decides to go to sleep he still has to get up in the morning.

TBH I didn't punish him for eating my dinner, i ignored it and ordered a chow mein.

I feel as if it is always a punishment after punishment, as well as trying to reward the good.

if i was to sit and type a typical day you would understand...but i shan't bore you with that.

BigChris, we have been out doing fun stuff almost everyday this holiday. SO far we have been

southend x2
brighton
hastings x2
ramsgate
margate
science museum
hornimans museum
natural history museum
zoo
leysdown
huge indoor play arena
cinema
sisters for him to play with his cousins
to meet friends many times
swimming
park - on days where we have not been somewhere in car or on train
Lowestoft to theme park

We were going out today, but are not now..well now only to get his school uniform. There are only so many places you can go and still be unappreciated. He is going fishing at the weekend with his dad, then sunday we are going to visit friends. DP is on holiday all next week and whilst we can't afford to go away we won't be in every day either....but amidst all this we are flat hunting and packing to move.

Oh gosh - I don't know what to say....what a horrid situation you are in.

My gut instinct is to ignore, ignore, ignore all attempts to wind you up.

He needs to re-set his sleep clock but you cannot force him to go to sleep. i would do the following: Bedroom at 9pm - remove all electronic devices - tv, dvd etc - you mentioned he loved to read well then let him read in bed from 9pm. If he reads till 1am then so be it BUT you must wake him at at regular time each morning, every morning.

Keep smiling, and as bigchris says, try and inject some fun into the situation with a simple game of football in the park.

LadyEvenStar I do feel for your situation but you really do have an answer for everything everyone suggests and it never involves any acknowledgement or insight into your role in this relationship.

You say "On my other thread I had people flaming me, telling me this was all my own fault, i allowed it to happen, that i was a bully, uncaring, negative, focusing on the bad"

I don't remember seeing that. I saw a lot of constructive suggestions met every time by a 'yeah but...'

Why ask if you don't want to hear anything anyone has to say? The only answer you appear to want is - no you are not unreasonable, your son is, he must be awful, and I don't know how you cope with him.

But you're not likely to receive that as just as no one is perfect, no one is all bad and at the end of the day YOU are the parent and he is a CHILD. So something has gone wrong here.

Sonnet, BigChris, and everyone else can you pleaseeeeeeeee send me some extra patience and ear plugs then???

Sonnet, i cannot possibly inject anymore fun into it...we hardly ever stay indoors and we are always trying to have fun iyswim?

does fun come in a bottle you think? i could get him to drink it lol

He seems to need to control every situation - so yes he "may" be disappointed about missing out on a day out BUT in fact he has controlled what has happened today which may mitigate any disappointment he feels.

I think I would have been tempted to carry on with the day out - making the one comment about how he would be so tired you hoped it wouldn't spoil his day - and then just carry on with the plans

Debs, thats not true at all, if you read you will see i am not always having an answer or saying yeah but, i really have made sure he has had loads to do this holiday, i am abused by him in every direction. If you had (and not sure if you have) my post yesterday on other thread, you will see it has come to light that for some absurd reason this is a game he is playing...now that is not me saying it it is the CP, who through powers of getting inside a childs mind, has found out.

I guess the problem is that I don't always say everything in the first posting so it appears i have an answer for everything. Last night i asked was i being unreasonable expecting him to be asleep at gone 1am. I did say to disregard any other thread as they were irrelevant to the situation. I did not want it to get into all that side of it. Basically all i wanted was to vent a bit...you know it gets kinda lonely and sad when you have to deal with this day day out with no let up unless i give him everything he demands and don't ask or expect him to do anything even if that means i have to make him every drink, etc. And sometimes I just need to let off steam....I know i am not perfect, i know some of this is my own making, but i am still only human and he at 11 needs to take responsibility for his own actions. He does know exactly what he is doing and has said so many times "i know what I am doing and will stop when I am bored" the CP basically told me the same as that yesterday - out of ds1's earshot. Imagine how it feels to have a child you give all the time possible to and all he wants/needs are catered for and in return you get it thrown in your face. Imagine how it feels to have your child "run away" because you bought his baby brother a new set of vests/nappies/bottle etc?

When you have imagined it, then tell me you think it is so easy.

He has had boundaries but has always pushed them, another thing the CP has got from him..by what he has said is that another reason he is like this is because his father told him "get all you can from her and don't stop until you get it" I don't know if this is true that he said it, and as we are not in contact i cannot ever find out.

I understand that people think I have an answer for everything, but then when you think I have been doing this for 8 years now...then there are many things which have been tried and failed, many methods instilled to be ignored, many wishes/wants/needs fulfilled and yet nothing is enough.

Attention seeking is a big part of it, but then he has always craved attention even when it was he and I and we did everything together....I was once told Attention is like a drug the more you get it the more you want it.....now i am not sure if this is true or the case but i do know that with 2 children i share my attention as equally as possible, of course ds2 who is a toddler does take up a bit more of my time than ds1 but ds1 is also at an age where he can understand the needs of a toddler...nappy changing, bathing him, etc are not the same as his.

Sorry typed that quickly as i have a nekkid toddler on the loose

Another thing debs do you honestly think it is unreasonable to expect him to be in bed and asleep 1am???

because that is what i was asking. he is not awful however his behaviour is....

I didn't mean to imply that you didn't have fun - I think he has had some fab days out -

If i could send you patience I would - I really would. Quite honestly I would be an angry gibbering wreck if I had to cope with what you do with your DS ( after reading your last thread). But from somebody who is removed from the emotion, what I see is a child trying, for whatever reasons, to manipulate and control what happends around him even if he misses out on things - he is cutting his nose off to spite his face - and II think you need to hold firm and not change any plans you may have. I also think that if you only concentrate on one thing to solve/get under control it should be the bedtime issue.

Why do you do everything for him - including as you said make every drink for him? He is 11. He needs to learn to do things for himself.

I'm a bit shocked at the number of outings you have had during the summer holidays so far. Does he ever just amuse himself - he might take time to adjust to doing that if he's not used to it, but I think he has to.