to expect my son aged 11 to be asleep at this hour?

[TheLadyEvenstar]

forget all other posts i have put up they are irrelevant.

I have made plans to take him to the coast tomorrow with his friend her mum myself and ds2.

So at 9 i asked him to go to bed and allowed him to watch a film. I just went to put ds2 into his bed (he goes to sleep on sofa and i transfer him when i go to bed) and find ds1 still awake, but him thinking he is smarter than me closes his portable dvd player down when he hears me coming up hallway.

I have removed the dvd player and am seriously doubting going tomorrow, because

1- i cannot go to bed until he is asleep
2- he will be hard to get up in the morning
3- he will be a total grump all day because he is tired
4- he has just told me to get lost and get out of his life...all i said is you have lost your dvd player until you learn not to the mickey out of me. (and i did not even argue i walked away, ok sounds silly but i am proud of myself!)

Curiositykilled - I've seen her respond positively to things that have been said, or explain why something doesn't work or explain a situation in more depth than was possible in the initial post.

To me, it came over as a conversation, where a picture of a situation grows gradually, and I actually find that easier a lot of the time than reading one huge post that goes into every detail - but depression and tiredness have given me the attention span of a gnat, and I can see that everyone won't see things the same way.

So basically both boys seem to have an opinion that LOVE = money/presents/attention and demand those things in return for normal behaviour on their part (e.g. for dss - seeing his dad)

"Initially it was all great fun for everyone and then the demands got bigger and we got skinter"

Basically it sounds to me like you have been emotionally blackmailed. Money and activities do not equal love.

Why does dss not see you now? Is it because you have ds2 and can't afford to buy him stuff?

PS I'm not having a dig, I honestly want to understand and try to help....

Keep, it was all because of christmas when we could not by ay means afford a second electric guitar for him and his answer was "either buy me it or i wont see you again"

You are right about the boys seeing the LOVE as a materialistic thing, I think thats more than half the problem. DS1 was the first grandchild in my family, my sister had been told she could not have children so everyone doted on him....he wanted for nothing iyswim?

of course now with ds1 and ds2 things are very different because attention from everyone is on him as well.

DSS doesn't see his dad, or ds2 as his family, dp tried to explain they are still brothers and his answer was nope he is not my brother and never will be.....he is a nice kid but has mum and nan (dps mum thats another lonnnnnnnnnnng story lol) influence as well.

Oh keep, I didn't think you were having a dig and I am trying to explain it all as honestly and in as much detail as possible without spending 70000000 hours typing

How has your dp dealt with the fact that his son doesn't want to visit, because you refused to buy him something?

Keep, obviously it has hurt him and what hurts him more is dss will talk to me on msn and facebook but will not talk to dp on either. He doesn't want me to stop talking as I am the only link between the 2 of them he says and otherwise he will not know how dss is. Its a sad situation...kinda reverse of ds1's. where his father doesn't want to see him

Has he taken any active steps to resolve the situation?

He offered to buy the guitar for his b'day which was in febuary but dss didn't want it he then wanted i think it was a wii or xbox 360. he emails him and phones him, phone doesn't get answered and emails are possibly read but not replied to, I just hope it can be resolved because it is horrible to see 2 children in the same situation but reversed if that makes sense.

Just read through this thread and the other one too (quite a mammoth read).
Unfortunately I cannot offer expert advice, or even any more words than the other posters - some of whom seem to have made a stellar effort to help you.
However it does become really apparent when reading the whole thread(s) that you do respond to certain comments - particularly those that offer sympathy rather than practical solutions. Yet many many times towards the end of this thread it was suggested that you visit the SN board and see what the mums there say and you have not addressed these comments once.
Are you wanting sympathy only? I don't mean that in a harsh-sounding way (God in your situation I'd be wanting bucket loads, you poor thing). Or are you wanting a solution to this terrible situation you and your family are in? Cause if it's the latter (and I'm sure it is - you sound like you're screaming for help but have already given up?) then push PUSH PUSH for answers.
If the "experts" you've seen and are seeing are not giving you solutions that work, dump them and go somewhere else.
Don't give up till you and your son(s - I'm sure it must be affecting the younger one too) get the help and support that you all desperately deserve.
I wish you all the best.

Sorry - meant to add too. I was astounded too at the list of places you'd taken your son to. There are 20+ outings there - not sure how long the school holidays have been to date (4 weeks? 5 weeks?) but that's a hell of a lot of trips for anyone, whether they behave or not!
If he's regularly going to bed late, then the kid must be bloody exhausted with day excursions day in day out?
I'd be using these excursions as a tool as well (I think others may have suggested this). If he misbehaves, you threaten to take away the trip. He misbehaves, you take away the trip. End of.
You mention that you lose anyway, cause then you have to suffer his resulting mood/behaviour at your cancelling the trip. Well, maybe. But at least you save the cash!
And if the misbehaving continues? Well, cancelling trip after trip, it would get through to him that another day at home, minus electrical goods that you've confiscated, aint what he wants.

I do think that it is possible for children to be overstimulated and that they need "down-time". My 13 year old would be unbearable if we did that many trips in such a short time - particularly at the beginning of the holidays.

It does sound to me as if your ds is, whatever else, completely overtired. He's not sleeping, he's out every day on organized trips. Would it be possible to just stop the outings for a week and let him go to the park with his friends, or go to the swimming pool or camp in the garden or watch TV or read all day - just to unwind a bit?

Is this ridiculously simplistic? Sorry if it is.

Totally Seeker. That's what I was trying to say though probably not so coherently as you!
I've seen kids that have day trip after day trip planned for them without a down day in between to recuperate. It's easy to see from an outsiders perspective too that the kids are absolutely exhausted.
In all fairness, the mother often thinks that she's doing the best for her child and giving him wonderful opportunities to have fun, experience culture, get fresh air blah blah blah when in fact most kids would be happiest kicking a ball round the garden/park with their mates.

I feel sorry for these children, too.

I don't really know what else to say. You seem to have got into a right pickle. It seems to me that you and DP both feel guilty about what has happened in the past and have tried hard to make it up the boys in trips and presents.

Instead of growing up thinking of presents and trips as a "treat" - birthday, Xmas, good school report, good behaviour, helping out at home etc, they've now built up a sense of entitlement to have whatever they want, and kick off when they don't get it.

If I were you, I would cancel all trips, take away all electical items and have a stern chat with DS1. Tell him that you love him, want him to be happy and are always there for him but that you will not tolerate this behaviour anymore. New rules mean that he has to earn his "stuff" and trips/treats etc.

This means going to bed when he is told and staying there, helping round the house a bit, not waking up the baby, not answering back etc etc. It will be bloody hard I know, but you have to stand your ground and let him scream all he wants. Ignore, ignore, ignore and don't give in.

TLES - you've had so much advice posted on these threads, I've only skim read alot of it. I think you feel so overwhelmed you are posting out of desperation, you may be looking for reassurance and an outlet, and also feel defensive about your parenting. I can imagine that you are so tired you probably can't see the wood for the trees.

I can only think you haven't tried ignoring him enough - I remember the tea bag smears earlier on, for stuff like this, just say "the rain will wash that off later" and try and distract him somehow, he is attention seeking, the more positive attention he gets (apologies if you already do this) the less need for him to behave badly.

On the other thread he gave you a hard time over having a different drink to the other children, as he's 11, just give him the money to choose his own drink when he's in the shop with you. Just show him as much as possible you have good will towards him.

Take time for yourself when you can, you have a 2 yr old and a difficult pre-adolescent. I think you should relax as much as possible, this will mean you won't feel like being so wound up about some of the stuff he does.

Morning all am a lot clearer minded today having had a brilliant nights sleep and excellent behaviour from ds1 yesterday afternoon/evening. Including him being asleep by 9.30 with no fuss. So i may be able to read/say things a bit better.

Firstly I have posted on SN boards and have had a couple of replies.

Furious, it was DP who was told by HIS son that he would have to buy the guitar if he wanted to see him again....and I agree with you it would not be right and thats why I said no. I know I have over indulged ds1 and actually have not with ds2...
DS1 did learn too much too soon, i seriously wish i could turn back time and change what he heard, saw, witness but sadly i cannot. All i can do is try to help us both understand what he is feeling and why he is reacting the way he is, and in turn i am reacting. Which is all I have wanted to do from the start of this thread.

It is amazing how calm the house feels today he and ds2 are eating their breakfast there is no screaming (from either) or shouting. It is lovely watching them...Whoever said that ds2 will idolize ds1..this is so true he hangs on his every word and is constantly wanting to be with him.

Penny, Sympathy is not what I want tbh i am not zone for sympathy..I can give sympathy easily but not accept it. I have used the trips as a bargaining tool previously...the ones listed were not the only ones planned BUT until yesterday that did not have an effect, yesterday i cancelled the trip because he had been up too late, meaning i was up late and therefore we were both tired. He kind of realised and said "if only i had gone to bed i would be out now" SO maybe that is the way to go. I can see what you are saying about too much stimulation...and I will say you are right however it is hard to know sometimes which is the right way to go because it means either he is over stimulated and argumentative or he is tired due to a lack of sleep and argumentative....either way the end result has always been the same. I think thats why I have arranged most of the trips because he doesn't normally behave like this if we are out...so again for an easy life i get him out and doing things, burning off energy in the hope that when we get home he will be worn out enough to not argue etc. I can see how he would interpret this as it doesn't matter what he does he gets a treat anyway. There have been breaks in between the trips even just a day.

Someone mentioned him going to play with friends. There is a history here that will sound odd i guess. DS1, went through school trying to make friends but for various reasons did not. The main one (and i posted a lot about this) was he was a victim of racism...he has left junior school with 2 maybe 3 friends who live a fair way from us. I have every part of me crossed that when he embarks on the next stage of education - secondary- in september he will make new friends as there is only one member of his previous school going there and he is being sent there because he is ds1's friend. i did this deliberatly as some of the children are already undesirable characters...thieves, bullies, 4 of them have asbos and are proud of it. So i have moved him away from them all. And am hoping that by being in a school where there is not the same pupils he went to school with he will be able to make a fresh start and gain new real friends.

He can spend hours entertaining himself normally he just loves to read and has always done. he is like me in that respect.

On the front of DSS the problems all started over the guitar with later things said being "Tell dad i will see him but he needs to call mum weekly and see how she is ask if she wants to go out" I did pass this message on to DP who said (with a jovial manner) "Oh yes babe, I will call her ask her to go for dinner and you can have the 3 boys, then i can see ds" I did have to laugh but i did say to him...that dss was trying another route of blackmail..or whatever you want to call it. TBH for all of DS1's silliness with his behaviour he has only recently made demands like this with regard to take me out and i will behave....

I personally feel the sleep issue is a huge part of the whole thing. I know myself when I am tired I am rattier. I have sat this morning trying to think where the sleep issues began and can pinpoint it to one time. when he was 3 1/2 years old. And this is what I need to try and resolve, I think he is scared to go to sleep until everyone is in bed and settled. He is scared he will lose someone....let me explain.

My grandad had a stroke and was in hospital ds1 had been promised we were going to see him the following day (they were almost as close as grandad and I) so when he got up in the morning and got himself dressed come running downstairs and said come on mummy lets go see old grandad. I was faced with explaining Old Grandad had died. I told him old Grandad had gone to live with his mummy and daddy in the sky as they missed him....they were not the exact words i used but similar to. We then went to my mums and he started bombarding her with questions which in the state she was in having just lost her dad she answered as best she could.

One thing i remember is after losing my Grandad, DS1's life did change. Obviously it affected everyone differently especially as I was still caring for my Nanny who was 82 yrs old. DS1 then began not sleeping in his bed, being scared to sleep he would stay awake all night and everytime i drifted off to sleep he would wake me up...he was in my bed then. I did go to the doctors nearly everyday because i was seriously sleep deprived and so was he. He was too tired for nursery, it was a difficult time. Doctors did not do much other than prescribe sleeping medicine which i was to use for 2 weeks, i did as advised but when the 2 weeks were up we had the same issues...not sleeping too tired for school, education welfare on my doorstep, so i then would get him to school come hell and high water, they then called me in because he was sleeping in class....I couldn't win either way they were on my back, but nobody would listen to what i was saying that it was not just a case of him not wanting to sleep and that he was scared and that is when his behaviour started to deteriorate, getting worse and i mean drastically worse after he had the MMR.

Sorry need to pop off to sort ds2 out but i will be back in a minute.

It is amazing what a night's sleep will do, isn't it. Fingers crossed that today goes well.

Ds1 sounds like a very bright and imaginative boy, as his reaction to your grandfather's death shows. It occurred to me to wonder if writing stories might help him express what he's feeling - just a thought.

Staying...it could do I express what I am feeling by writing poetry....

TLES - having spoken to you and heard ds1 in the background yesterday, and spoken to him today, he is a very bright boy and struck me as being absolutely aware of what he is doing. Yesterday, he was acting up for attention whilst we talked on the phone, and today he sounded so different - and confident too - it takes confidence to talk to an adult you've not met. I think he's got a great sense of humour there and his comment to me that he's got 'naughty boy syndrome' shows awareness of his actions.

If only I still lived down south, we could have got together - your ds1 and my ds3 would get on like a house on fire, I think!

ewwww not liking this - you spoke to him stayingsunny??

Yes, hobbgoblin, and TLES knows I am posting this. Obviously if I have done something that MNHQ are unhappy with, then I am more than happy to ask for the post to be deleted.

To put it in context, TLES and I are facebook friends, and I gave her my phone number when I felt she needed someone outside the situation to unload on, and she rang me. She is also helping me at the moment as I am going through a bad bout of depression, and she listens to me moan on.

I thought that someone else's observation might be useful, but if I have done the wrong thing by posting this, then I am sorry.

ss, I'm just one opinion so really don't apologise. Also, it's up to TLES what she wants. However, I think that you might consider that there have been a number of professionals involved which in itself can add to the problem. The way the Core Assessment Framework works is to limit the number of people involved - and for good reason.

I think it's great that mnetters are providing support but one has to be careful not to take on complex issues without the support mechanisms in place for the helpers!

Also, be wary of TLES becoming sidelined in the eyes of her DS. It could be considered great kudos by him to have yet another helper come along reinforcing the notion that mummy cannot deal with this. The more people trying to help the more 'special' and out of control he may view himself.

Finally any support should be cohesive or good work could be undone or undermined.

These are the things that made me go 'ewwww'. Feel free to ignore/disagree, etc.

I certainly shan't ignore what you are saying hobbgoblin, and I will be careful to make sure I don't do more harm than good - honestly.