to not understand why so many poor people... PART 2

[nybom]

As things have calmed down a little now, despite DH getting involved , I will try and explain once more what I meant to express by OP.

It boils down to:

I have noticed that in this society a lot of money is spent unwisely/for luxuries and increasingly so. This does indeed occur, as many of you have pointed out, regardless of level of income, throughout the social stratum. What I don't understand is, how the very poor people spend/are able to spend money on luxuries whilst compromising on the basic requirements (such as nutritious food for their children). The examples I mentioned were from my circle of friends, not generalisations.

I was bringing up examples from poor people because if a wealthy person fritters his income away for luxuries it doesn?t affect basic requirements such as food, (at least I have never ever come across anybody), however if you don't have any money to spend, it does.

Before you get enraged, I'm not addressing poor people as a whole, I don?t mean disabled people or people with poor health (mental or physical), nor people made redundant, nor women (or men) left by their partners, or any one else who unexpectedly and by now fault of his or her own has got him- or herself into that situation. Neither do I mean poor people who indulge themselves with their own saved money or money given to them by someone else.

I don't think it is fair that MNs stereotype "the rich", and have a go at them. But how dare anyone say anything negative about "the poor". That is hypocritical.

I only listed how I spend my money to demonstrate that it can be done, not to say how ?great? I am. If I can do it anybody can.

Please don?t make any assumptions what I do or not do in RL to actively help make things better and support people in need...
And I have a great life, thank you, and not a boring one, either. But curiosity is human nature (just look at the topics of women?s magazines, don?t any of you buy those?), and if you walk through life with open eyes, you just notices things. Also, my academic background is in sociology, so I have a genuine interest in wanting to understand why people do what they do. No finger pointing or accusing intended.

Finally, I?d like to respond to some specific points which have been repeatedly been raised:

RE car engine: it is an absolute myth that it is cheaper to leave the engine on rather than turn it off and on again a short while later (ask any car mechanic). In some countries you risk a fine if you don?t turn your engine off at (certain) traffic lights/road works! They?re not doing that for the sake of it. It?s just unnecessary pollution and a waist of money! It is not a matter of ?treating yourself? if the husband waits in the car with running engine and the wife goes shopping in a supermarket (and it is not extremely cold or hot (aircon))! It?s just stupid. I don?t imply you should turn your engine off at stop and go traffic jams, but those where you come to a standstill, where after 2 or 3 minutes of nothing happening it would be wise to turn the engine off (even if you had to turn it on again in 1 minute it would save money). Same with ?popping in? at shops/dropping friend of etc...

RE kids parties: there?s nothing wrong with kids parties per se! Of course it's nice to create something fun for them. But why have branded accessories right down to the bags the kids take home? Again, extra expenditures and extra waste. A nice party isn?t made nice by spending loads! A (simple) selfmade cake (not one of those branded one with loads of artificial colouring, ugh), and a couple of party games is all the children need to be really really HAPPY. The bags are thrown away, as are most of the contents, it is cheeper and easier to use kitchen towel or plastic bags for sandwhiches plus you can choose what you put in the bags.

RE cut fruit: It is still absolutely beyond me why you would spend twice as much money (or more) for precut fruit (not tins!) if you could easily cut it yourself, particulary if you are poor and only have a 5 pound shopping budget.

The UK has become a very materialistic society (but that is a different topic), maybe I just recognise it more as I?m from a different cultural background.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy this idea that nybom is coming across badly because possibly English is not her first language. From the very outset she was deliberately provokative with her sweeeping generalisations about the poor. She has then made plenty of statements that are not factually accurate (starting I think with claiming that she didn't get CB because she was too wealthy). Rather than acknowledge the inaccuracies though, she just starts shouting how people aren't listening and then accuses people of being racist.
All she needs to do is actually answer the debate questions put to her (fair enough if she doesn't want to say where she comes from, but her "husband" did raise it first in his economicially unsound comparisons).
1700 posts in and I have been trying to engage in the debate from the very begiining, but it is difficult when someone ignores facts and refuses to clarify their own points.

Just to make a comment on the ff/precut fruit agrument that I havent seen mentioned. (sorry if it has)

When you are on benefits, along with the money you receive, you also get vouchers each week. These vouchers can then be used to buy milk, (fresh or formula) and fruit and vegetables.

This is to ensure that the children from families of the lowest income can be sure to have these basic requirments.

Riven I hope your little one is geting better xx

Well what do you want us to sago, curiosity?

curlyhairedassassine (around midnight) you got it spot on!

i never wanted to cause offence, in my OP some things might have been worded clumsily because english isn't my first language, but people don't "buy it"! everything, i repeat EVERYTHING i said, apart from confusing CB with CTC, was correct!

and after being pestered why i don't get CB (CTC) i answered becauswe our income was too high. which led to abusive posts which had to be removed.

so much shit has been speculated. you know, pople have claimed...

... i am a bitter racist 13 year old snob with an imaginary PhD (obtained in the UK after a language test) from a non-eu country (or essex) with chron's disease...

it is beyond belief! THAT shows how much has been assumed about me.

it seems they just don't give in until they have your home address, CV and maybe your shoe size...

right...

curlyhairedassasin - 'By curiositykilled Tue 11-Aug-09 21:43:47 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster
Much love to all new mums and pregnant ones, don't let nybom upset you. Perhaps you could put it down to the possibility that English might be not her first language x '

Have you read the whole thread and part 1?

People are objecting to the way nybom is behaving. This thread has actually been very little to do with the actual arguments she was making because that was done to death in the first one. If you think she is not making sweeping generalisations I suggest you spend a bit of time reading both threads. Her/her 'husband's' tactic seems to be to attack people stating that she can because he/she is clever, rich or from a different cultural background where SSS is better. Then she back pedals saying that clearly she didn't mean YOU personally or didn't say something she clearly did, she won't clarify who she does mean or where the land of milk and honey is she originates from so that we can decide for ourselves a response to her/her 'husband's' arguments about SSS.

Then she cries racism. There has been no racism. The only time I have seen anything which could be tenuously construed as racism - other than nybom's/nybom's husband's implication that there country of origin/race is superior in some way because the UK is so materialistic and her cultural background allows her to see this more clearly, was one post which told nybom to 'bugger off back to her own country' - this was objected to and duly clarified as having been in response to nybom's/nybom's husband's implied assertion that their country of origin was superior.

She comes accross to me as someone who feels they want to have their superiority confirmed by others. She deliberately provokes people, then back pedals until it appears she's not getting anywhere then attacks again and then cries racism.

If she were a truly reasonable person, interested in other people's views she would have apologised each time it became evident she had upset someone. She has apologised once (that I have seen), for the way she worded a post - in the context that was more of an attack than an apology.

josie - Since you keep repeating yourself I shall explain, shall I? I flooded the thread until I was asked not to. Then I apologised for the thread flooding to those who objected. The way to fill up a thread without flooding is to keep posting on it... I'm not sure why the appropriate action to take if you want to fill a thread would be to not post on it. If you think about it logically do you think this is why I am back today? Is it why I keep saying I want to fill the thread maybe?

posieparkerinchina

i never brought my country into it. someone mentioned that i was a foreigner which they had picked up in a different thread. then, after DH got involved, HE was question what our SSS are like. WHERE did I make comparisons with my country, where?

Nybom - you say you didn't want to cause offence, yet you refuse to apologise when you have caused offence and hurt to ElieRM and KimbleTwins - why is that?

stayingsunnygirl - perhaps we could take a poll about the best shop/restaurant bought pudding we have had?

I like pizza express tiramisu... mmm...

curiosity you seem a scary person with a rich imagination (enjoying your shit stiring, are you?) stop spreading RUMORS!

• WHERE did i bring my country into it?
• i DIDN'T make sweeping statements. i referred to people i know ONLY, i have repeated this over and over again
• i NEVER said i was clever, someone MENTIONED my IQ (from another thread, you don't even know the context), someone ASKED what academic qualification i have
• i never rubbed in i was rich, i was ASKED why i don't get CB/CTC
• i wrote (QUOTE): "i am not superior to anybodz", several times

THAT is one of the reasont why i hate giving any personal oinfo about me - you just turn it against me!

stayingsunnywirl

simple: BECAUSE. I. DIDN'T.

they are offended by something that isn't directed to them and isn't about them at all.

i might as well be offended by "cancer" being mentioned in this thread because someone dear to me has died of cancer. but i'm not because i differentiate.

read my posts back. and let them speak for themselves. who are YOU to tell me what to do?

nybom - what is your actual argument then?

If you start a thread which is basically about the idea that you are superior to other people then you can expect them to ask you what qualifies you as superior. You can also expect them to be annoyed and upset if they feel personally attacked and you refuse to apologise.

You can say that you have not claimed to be superior as many times as you like but perhaps you should read some of the things you have written about how your lifestyle is better than your friend's.

nybom - the equivalent argument about cancer would have been that you had caused that person dear to you to have gotten cancer in the first place because of something you did. Don't forget you argued that ff had given you a chronic disease and that was why you were qualified to speak about the subject. THAT is why elie and kemble twins were so upset. I'm that you don't understand that and are trying to use that particular discussion as a way to make people feel sorry for you.

Being rich is irrelevant with regards to CB, Nybom- although I understand some people wouldn't think or choose to apply. Even the royals are entitled though.

Ellie don't let anyone get you down, over the years I have met several people who think their PND was triggered by not being able to BF. I suspect it was a big factor with ds1 for me. Nobody can tell someone what to get upset about, it's cruel and completely wrong. As well as stupid.

'>>>> '

Apart from a feeling of distaste at the nastiness, I would just like to say it is in fact 'their'.

How weird that she just wont say where she is from that is meant to be so great? It's not like if she says 'Italy' we can then go and track down all Italians living here and ask them if they are her?

I hate people who come here and complain. Nybom believe me when I say no one begged you to come here. No one.

Nybom - your comments did cause upset and hurt to Elie and KT, even though that was not your intention, and that is why, in my opinion, you owe them an apology.

If someone tells me that I have hurt them, even if it is accidental or inadvertant, then I will apologise, because I was brought up to believe that that was good manners, and it is from that standpoint that I am telling you that I think you need to apologise.

However, you are clearly not going to apologise, and that does not improve my impression of you at all.

Peachy - I'm one of the people who thinks their PND was triggered or exacerbated by their inability to breastfeed. I still feel a sense of failure when I think about it, but have come to terms with it over the years - I have three happy, healthy boys who love good food and will eat the veggies I cook for them, so I'm not a total failure as a mum!

And curiositykilled - favourite shop/restaurant pudding - hmmmmmm - I am going to have to think about that one - there are sooo many worthy contenders! In fact, I may have to go on a lengthy and exhaustive factfinding mission to make sure my answer is accurate!!

Are you from Sweden mynob?

At university, where I am currently studying public service management (which incorporates sociology, social policy, law and criminology) we debate a huge variety of issues, many of them emotive and many of them personal to students and staff.
In order to debate in a decorous and appropriate fashion, and out of respect for each other, the following unwritten and unspoken rules apply:
Sweeping generalisations are NOT made; general comments are only considered acceptable if they can be backed up by proper academic studies.
If anyone ever inadvertantly causes offence, they apologise immediately and with good grace.
Of course we draw onpersonal experiences, both of ourselves and people we know, but we never assume they are representative.
People are encouragedto express their opinions. Lively debate is also encouraged. But never at the expense of someone's feelings. If someone makes a statement, they are expected to back it up. As the op, despite her protestations, has ignored the abpve points, i firmly believe she is not trying to stimulate a proper debate, simply to propogateher own opinions.
if you cannot debate coherently, respectfully and provide appropriate evidense when requestedit may be better not to debate at all.

ElieRM, I take your point and your discussions at university sound measured and well-reasoned, but this isn't university - this is mumsnet! Every time someone posts, SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE gets offended, whether it be about breastfeeding, fruitshoots, or the colour of your sofa.

For what it's worth, I failed to breastfeed successfully - twice. It was VERY upsetting at the time, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to get all het up just because someone comes on here and gives the quite valid opinion that choosing to try and BF would make more economic sense to someone on a low income. I may have missed something but I don't recall seeing any mention anywhere of the OP trying to argue that FF is the devil's work and only done by lazy, feckless dimwits! THEN you'd have a case!

I HAVE actually read most of this thread, and the other one, and I still think this whole thread (and the other one) is disappointing.

There have been some fantastic threads on here lately that have really opened my eyes. Unfortunately this isn't one of them. Maybe when the teacher comes out to blow the whistle you can all calm down again!!

Nybom, for the sake of accuracy (again) your husband brought up your country first. He said (to paraphrase) "in this country you pay 20% of your income in social security and distribute it to everyone, in my country we contribute almost 40% and give it only to those truly deserving". Cue questions about which country. Hardly difficult to understand.

To be honest, you ought to be proud - you family is a story of economic migration working. Your husband earns enough (in something to do with social security) to allow you to be a SAHM and push you past the threshold for tax credits (so over £60k if your children are over one, over £80k if you have a baby). Isn't Britain great (despite all it's pesky poor people)?

One downside of the British character is, of course, our pedantry, You have made other mistakes as well as the CB claim. The petrol claim is also wrong (I think an engineer provided you with a link) and you have yet to acknowledge (or apologise) for your use of the word "coloured" in the context of a person of another race. Thre biggest bugbear of course, is that people ask you perfectly reasonable questiopns and you ignore them.

scattykatty
"I hate people who come here and complain. Nybom believe me when I say no one begged you to come here. No one."

so you are saying that if you live here as a foreigner you have to find everything 100% brilliant? and are you saying foreigners shouldn't be allowed to speak their mind in the UK? whoa...

also, how do you know that i wasn't asked to stay? how the f. do you know the reasons i came here?

clemette firstly, DH and me might be close, but where not the same person... and didn't he say what he said in response to how things are done in our country?

as i said before, the UK is a bloody brilliant place to live! i never said anything else. but that doesn't mean i have to agree with everything. neihter do i think everything is brilliant in my country of origin. also, OP wasn't intended as a debate or even criticism about SSS of UK, but more along the lines of "i noticed peope do soandso, why do they do it?" that it happened to be friends from the UK was secondary.