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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not understand why so many poor people... PART 2

1000 replies

nybom · 10/08/2009 11:59

As things have calmed down a little now, despite DH getting involved , I will try and explain once more what I meant to express by OP.

It boils down to:

I have noticed that in this society a lot of money is spent unwisely/for luxuries and increasingly so. This does indeed occur, as many of you have pointed out, regardless of level of income, throughout the social stratum. What I don't understand is, how the very poor people spend/are able to spend money on luxuries whilst compromising on the basic requirements (such as nutritious food for their children). The examples I mentioned were from my circle of friends, not generalisations.

I was bringing up examples from poor people because if a wealthy person fritters his income away for luxuries it doesn?t affect basic requirements such as food, (at least I have never ever come across anybody), however if you don't have any money to spend, it does.

Before you get enraged, I'm not addressing poor people as a whole, I don?t mean disabled people or people with poor health (mental or physical), nor people made redundant, nor women (or men) left by their partners, or any one else who unexpectedly and by now fault of his or her own has got him- or herself into that situation. Neither do I mean poor people who indulge themselves with their own saved money or money given to them by someone else.

I don't think it is fair that MNs stereotype "the rich", and have a go at them. But how dare anyone say anything negative about "the poor". That is hypocritical.

I only listed how I spend my money to demonstrate that it can be done, not to say how ?great? I am. If I can do it anybody can.

Please don?t make any assumptions what I do or not do in RL to actively help make things better and support people in need...
And I have a great life, thank you, and not a boring one, either. But curiosity is human nature (just look at the topics of women?s magazines, don?t any of you buy those?), and if you walk through life with open eyes, you just notices things. Also, my academic background is in sociology, so I have a genuine interest in wanting to understand why people do what they do. No finger pointing or accusing intended.

Finally, I?d like to respond to some specific points which have been repeatedly been raised:

RE car engine: it is an absolute myth that it is cheaper to leave the engine on rather than turn it off and on again a short while later (ask any car mechanic). In some countries you risk a fine if you don?t turn your engine off at (certain) traffic lights/road works! They?re not doing that for the sake of it. It?s just unnecessary pollution and a waist of money! It is not a matter of ?treating yourself? if the husband waits in the car with running engine and the wife goes shopping in a supermarket (and it is not extremely cold or hot (aircon))! It?s just stupid. I don?t imply you should turn your engine off at stop and go traffic jams, but those where you come to a standstill, where after 2 or 3 minutes of nothing happening it would be wise to turn the engine off (even if you had to turn it on again in 1 minute it would save money). Same with ?popping in? at shops/dropping friend of etc...

RE kids parties: there?s nothing wrong with kids parties per se! Of course it's nice to create something fun for them. But why have branded accessories right down to the bags the kids take home? Again, extra expenditures and extra waste. A nice party isn?t made nice by spending loads! A (simple) selfmade cake (not one of those branded one with loads of artificial colouring, ugh), and a couple of party games is all the children need to be really really HAPPY. The bags are thrown away, as are most of the contents, it is cheeper and easier to use kitchen towel or plastic bags for sandwhiches plus you can choose what you put in the bags.

RE cut fruit: It is still absolutely beyond me why you would spend twice as much money (or more) for precut fruit (not tins!) if you could easily cut it yourself, particulary if you are poor and only have a 5 pound shopping budget.

The UK has become a very materialistic society (but that is a different topic), maybe I just recognise it more as I?m from a different cultural background.

OP posts:
nybom · 11/08/2009 20:09

I DID APOLOGIZE about the way OP was worded. again, one of the many things i said that have been overlooked or twisted...

curiosity - you MUST have published a novel. why won't you tell me the titel! go on. why are you withholdoing information. what is it that you have to hide...?

(will sit back now until the discussion gets sensible again...)

OP posts:
curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 20:10

josie + Elie - could also be celiac, Inflammatory bowel, diabetes, some cancers, asthma (sounds worrying). All have been previously linked to formula feeding. I would find it hard to trust any of the links because IMO it would be very difficult to conduct any proper studies into feeding and the links to any chronic health problems as there are so many factors involved. I think nybom is cruel to worry you. Formula feeding is a great alternative to breast feeding, babies in this country have fantastic outcomes however they are fed, not like in the developing world.

josiejo79 · 11/08/2009 20:16

Thanks Curiosity. Where did you find the info, or do you just know it? I thought IBS, Diabetes and Asthma were all linked to genetics rather than whether someone is BF or not. As i said in an earlier post i was BF and my sisters weren't but we all suffer from Asthma, exema (Still can't spell it)etc, so am not clear how someone can be so sure that their medical condition is absolutley because they weren't BF!

oh and Nybom, i don't think stayinsunnygirl is referring to the OP but the statement you made on around page 22 about the 1% of people that can not physically breastfeed and that those who don't have made a luxury choice, (or something along those lines).

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 20:17

nybom - I think they were requesting you apologise for being hurtful rather than apologise for how you worded the thread. as you well know

nybom · 11/08/2009 20:26

my post didn't relate to them in ANY WAY. no matter how you twist htings around. i explicitly said i didn't mean women with "GENUINE REASONS" (QUOTE), and if their reasons aren't genuine not to BF i don't know what. or are YOU implying those in question should have BF?

OP posts:
curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 20:26

josie - I googled what had been linked to ff. Obviously not the most reliable thing BUT there are some proper studies out there too. Pro-Breastfeeding propaganda often uses studies to back up claims about links to disease. Then you can google the study to see if you can read it. Then you can decided on the reliability. I have done this several times before for other things and I like to think I know some things about it already. My parents and sister are doctors so I know about a bit about medicine and research. I think feeding method studies can often be easily seen through. One study which is always brought up when discussing links between feeding method and gastro-intestinal and respiratory illnesses during childhood didn't take into account whether children had been to nursery for example. IMO this is very important as when children go to nursery they inevitably pick up more bugs. I just think there are too many variables for anything to be conclusively down to ff and even then surely the conditions of the individual's home and their routine of feeding would also have an affect.

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 20:27

*effect

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 20:30

some of the allergy things sound plausible to me though. Formula is based on cow's milk which is an allergen and it is a more reliable thought that children can become allergic when exposed to allergies pre 6 months but this is often temporary and is only quite a small percentage. Clearly Formula will not be superior because it's not what babies are built to be fed on but I really think in this country where things are clean and safe formula is not damaging like some like to claim.

loopylil · 11/08/2009 20:32

if you have an academic background in sociology you should 100% know the proposed reasons why the 'poor' smoke for example i remember that being basic first level stuff. furthermore sociology is not why people do what they do but about constructs of society psychology concerns why people do what they do.
fraud........

LetThemEatCake · 11/08/2009 20:33

I haven't even read any of this thread, but the sheer number of replies just makes me feel tired. Surely none of you actually know what you're even arguing about any more do you?

Maybe you do.

In any case, I think my thread about buying park-keeper pincers was way more interesting and merited loads more responses than 3.

PeachyLaPeche · 11/08/2009 20:38

the breastfeeding thing- I trained in breastfeeding many moons age and have both ff and bf babies (ff on benefits in fact, you have to take your voucher to the clinic for free milk- so whilst it might affect the state income it didn't in any way affect what I spent my benefits on. DS4 is bf, still is at 16 months in fact.
The 1% may well be true for physically unable but things in relaity are so much mroe complex. For example, some women are parted from their babies for a while after birth (my sisyter was) and struggle afterwards, others just find they never get to rips with it. In my case my boys ahd undiagnosed allergies, once I knew what I was dealing with I could feed ds3 and ds4,but ds1's weight dropped to under 5lbs so it would hardly have been sensible not to try formula- but technically I could feed babies, just not him (they ahve casein intolerances).

Breastfeeding support is woefully inadequate, and a great deal of women who wish to BF don't manage it becuase of that. They often suffer quite bad reactions to this and sometimespsychological harm- calling them feckless would be arther cruel I feel. very much so, in fact.

The racism thing- well 'hmm - so if you see a coloured person in the streets and call him names, then it isn't racist because you don't know what country he's from' is interesting really. if you sport someone in the street and call him names based on colour, yes absoutely. but if he did something to upset you and you were respondin to that rather than anything to do with his race then it simply is not racist. People are pissed off at you for the way you are coming across, that has nothing to dow ith your colour. INdeed we have no idea what colour you are- as have you most of us (I say most as some of us have pictures on our names).

josiejo79 · 11/08/2009 20:39

Nybom, i am not trying to twist anything so please don't try and attack me by suggesting that i am questioning why someone does or does not BF. I was simply suggesting that Staysunnygirl had queried why you had not made an apology to EllieRM after her post on pg 23 specifically said that you had offended her.

Also there really is no reason to shout, or are you not aware that typing in Capitals is deemed as shouting?

nybom · 11/08/2009 20:42

josie - i meant capitals as emphasizing not shouting, it's quicker than this...

OP posts:
josiejo79 · 11/08/2009 20:45

It might be quicker but can cause offence, thank you for clarifying that you weren't shouting at me though.

preciouslillywhite · 11/08/2009 20:48

I've only skimmed this a teeny teeny bit cos it's MUCH too long and I haven't got time- so sorry if I say something that's been said forty eight times already BUT

as far as I can see people like to sit in judgment on those less fortunate/educated/privileged than they are because it makes them then the Guilty Party ie they are responsible for their own misfortune- which in turn absolves the more fortunate/educated/privileged from feeling any guilt themselves. This sort of old rubbish has been going on since the flaming industrial revolution about the "deserving" and "undeserving poor", and IMO it says a lot more about the judge than the judged.

Please stop it. It's unkind.

nybom · 11/08/2009 20:49

peachy - i don't know where the problem is. wanting/trying to bf but not being able to falls under "other genuine reasons".

re you're absolutely right, but if people tell me to bugger of to own counrty or bang on about what my country of origin is, or claim i said my culture is "superior" though i blatently didn't, or make fun of my spelling and occasionally clumsy spelling then, yes, that has a racist tinge to it.

OP posts:
nybom · 11/08/2009 20:50

re racism i meant.

OP posts:
curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 20:52

lol at let them eat cake!

what was your thread about?

Post it on here, you'll get responses aplenty and it'll fill up this godforsaken thread quicker!

PeachyLaPeche · 11/08/2009 20:53

I genuinel;y didn't get the impression they meant bugger back off to your own country though. Knowing the eprson who said it fairly well if only in MN world, what she meant I am certain translates into- if you don'tlike something, change it.

if you don't like your job, change it. If you don't like your aprtner, change it. if you don't like (and really you don't seem to) like your country or residence change it.

@other genuine reasons' doesn't equate to 1%, research on support and rapid decline in bf rates by 6 weeks suggests most ewomen fall into other genuine reasons.

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 20:54

here goes nybom trying to get the new one onside with the racism card again this is a recurring tactic...

Peachy - I would suggest readin the entire thread if it hadn't got so long...

PeachyLaPeche · 11/08/2009 20:58

Curiosity, I ahve been here since thread one day one my dear, though obviosuly my posts were invisible [sob]

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 20:58

nybom - the things you have pointed out are not allowed on mumsnet please report the racist posts to mumsnet so they can be removed.

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 21:00

peachy - sorry! lol! I haven't been here since day 1... been lurking for some but there's just so many posts...

LetThemEatCake · 11/08/2009 21:00

curiosity - thanks you for caring [mollified]

It was on the AIBU board - just that I am 34w pregnant and sick of bending over to pick up mess created by my other 2 dc, so want to invest in a pair of litter-collecting pincer things.

I should just point out that I am not poor - comfortably middle class, thankee kindly - so cannot possibly be accused of laziness in paying the £10 or so required by such a purchase.

Fruitysunshine · 11/08/2009 21:01

Peachy - I hear ya! Off to enjoy wine!

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