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to not understand why so many poor people... PART 2

1000 replies

nybom · 10/08/2009 11:59

As things have calmed down a little now, despite DH getting involved , I will try and explain once more what I meant to express by OP.

It boils down to:

I have noticed that in this society a lot of money is spent unwisely/for luxuries and increasingly so. This does indeed occur, as many of you have pointed out, regardless of level of income, throughout the social stratum. What I don't understand is, how the very poor people spend/are able to spend money on luxuries whilst compromising on the basic requirements (such as nutritious food for their children). The examples I mentioned were from my circle of friends, not generalisations.

I was bringing up examples from poor people because if a wealthy person fritters his income away for luxuries it doesn?t affect basic requirements such as food, (at least I have never ever come across anybody), however if you don't have any money to spend, it does.

Before you get enraged, I'm not addressing poor people as a whole, I don?t mean disabled people or people with poor health (mental or physical), nor people made redundant, nor women (or men) left by their partners, or any one else who unexpectedly and by now fault of his or her own has got him- or herself into that situation. Neither do I mean poor people who indulge themselves with their own saved money or money given to them by someone else.

I don't think it is fair that MNs stereotype "the rich", and have a go at them. But how dare anyone say anything negative about "the poor". That is hypocritical.

I only listed how I spend my money to demonstrate that it can be done, not to say how ?great? I am. If I can do it anybody can.

Please don?t make any assumptions what I do or not do in RL to actively help make things better and support people in need...
And I have a great life, thank you, and not a boring one, either. But curiosity is human nature (just look at the topics of women?s magazines, don?t any of you buy those?), and if you walk through life with open eyes, you just notices things. Also, my academic background is in sociology, so I have a genuine interest in wanting to understand why people do what they do. No finger pointing or accusing intended.

Finally, I?d like to respond to some specific points which have been repeatedly been raised:

RE car engine: it is an absolute myth that it is cheaper to leave the engine on rather than turn it off and on again a short while later (ask any car mechanic). In some countries you risk a fine if you don?t turn your engine off at (certain) traffic lights/road works! They?re not doing that for the sake of it. It?s just unnecessary pollution and a waist of money! It is not a matter of ?treating yourself? if the husband waits in the car with running engine and the wife goes shopping in a supermarket (and it is not extremely cold or hot (aircon))! It?s just stupid. I don?t imply you should turn your engine off at stop and go traffic jams, but those where you come to a standstill, where after 2 or 3 minutes of nothing happening it would be wise to turn the engine off (even if you had to turn it on again in 1 minute it would save money). Same with ?popping in? at shops/dropping friend of etc...

RE kids parties: there?s nothing wrong with kids parties per se! Of course it's nice to create something fun for them. But why have branded accessories right down to the bags the kids take home? Again, extra expenditures and extra waste. A nice party isn?t made nice by spending loads! A (simple) selfmade cake (not one of those branded one with loads of artificial colouring, ugh), and a couple of party games is all the children need to be really really HAPPY. The bags are thrown away, as are most of the contents, it is cheeper and easier to use kitchen towel or plastic bags for sandwhiches plus you can choose what you put in the bags.

RE cut fruit: It is still absolutely beyond me why you would spend twice as much money (or more) for precut fruit (not tins!) if you could easily cut it yourself, particulary if you are poor and only have a 5 pound shopping budget.

The UK has become a very materialistic society (but that is a different topic), maybe I just recognise it more as I?m from a different cultural background.

OP posts:
mrsboogie · 11/08/2009 17:07

what's organic cakes got to do with anything? "organic" means nothing - its a middle class lifestyle choice for people who mistakenly think they are buying healthier food. All food is organic - if it was inorganic it wouldn't be edible.

The whole organic thing has recently been debunked as a marketing ploy. Making a cake out of organic ingredients certainly doesn't make you are better parent - its like these "poor people" buying designer sportswear for their kids - they are buying into a label.

ElieRM · 11/08/2009 17:08

in your orignal post you made a comment about poor women ffing their babies. in this op you comment on
What I don't understand is, how the very poor people spend/are able to spend money on luxuries whilst compromising on the basic requirements (such as nutritious food for their children).
could you explain to me how formula milk is a luxury? or why you thought it appropriate to bring in such an emotive topic, when many many women (myself included) rich and poor cannot breastfeed for whatever reason and feel guilty about it?

mrsboogie · 11/08/2009 17:08

a "coloured" person??

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 17:09

nybom - nobody is calling you names. We are asking you to explain a point your husband you made about your country of origin's SSS. We are asking that you tell us what that country is because you your husband said it was better than the system in the UK and we want to be able to make an argument in response to this. That. is. not. racism.

You are the boy who cried wolf.

LuvLee · 11/08/2009 17:10

Crikey - what's going on 'ere??

Longtalljosie · 11/08/2009 17:10

Yes, quite, mrsboogie, I thought that

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 17:12

mrsboogie - buying organic products is better purely due to the lack of pesticides used to grow/raise them. Pesticides have been linked to breast cancer e.t.c. There is some value in organic products.

ElieRM · 11/08/2009 17:14

in your orignal post you made a comment about poor women ffing their babies. in this op you comment on
What I don't understand is, how the very poor people spend/are able to spend money on luxuries whilst compromising on the basic requirements (such as nutritious food for their children).
could you explain to me how formula milk is a luxury? or why you thought it appropriate to bring in such an emotive topic, when many many women (myself included) rich and poor cannot breastfeed for whatever reason and feel guilty about it?

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 17:16

Think the recent fuss about organic products was basically about the myth that the actual quality of the food is better/organic products claim to be nutritionally superior. It's the lack of pesticides which is beneficial. However washing normal fruit and veg in washing up liquid and rinsing removes 90% of pesticides.

karala · 11/08/2009 17:23

with reference to your song lyrics then can I direct you to Dire Straits 'Money for Nothing' which was over 20 years ago.

(In case you don't know of this band - they were a popular beat combo made famous by their outrageous demands for pre-cut fruit which they then proceeded to dump into swimming pools. They used electric guitars which they refused to UNPLUG when they weren't actually strumming them)

flatcapandpearls · 11/08/2009 17:25

I like to put a few fresh strawberries in my victoria sponge, not pre cut but sometimes organic.

karala · 11/08/2009 17:25

And materialism and consumerism? Go back to the Romans for conspicuous consumption that makes today look like the new puritans.

Stayingsunnygirl · 11/08/2009 17:31

Curiositykilled makes a very interesting point - if nybom's attitude is based on a feeling of racial superiority, her views could be described as racist. I shall watch with interest to see if and how she answers that one.

Ohh - and with regard to formula feeding - I never made sufficient/good enough milk to feed my babies - indeed ds2 was admitted to hospital diagnosed as failing to thrive. None of them put on weight on my milk, and didn't thrive until formula fed. I'm jolly glad I had that 'luxury.' Would my babies have deserved it less if they'd been born to an undeserving poor family?

Morloth · 11/08/2009 17:31

I always thought the Money for Nothing song's next line was "And your chips for free". Wish I could have free chips.

The only cake worth eating/making is a Black Forest Cake - chocolate mud, with sour cherries and fresh cream....costs a lot more than 3 quid trust me!

nybom · 11/08/2009 17:37

ok elieRM...

i didn't want to elaborate further on this topic as it seemed to only cause trouble.

only 1% of all women can't BF for physical or phsychological reasons. for all i care take another couple of percent out of the equasion for those women who are in a social situation (abusive partners etc.) who are pressured into NOT BF and other genuine reasons. that means for the majority of women FF is a CHOICE and thus a luxury.

OP posts:
mrsboogie · 11/08/2009 17:41

it might be true of organic produce wasn't grown with pesticides - however it is - just a smaller range of them. The limited no of pesticides which can be used on organic produce often results in greater quantities being used and residue of pesticides are often found in organic food - especially that grown outside the UK.

ElieRM · 11/08/2009 17:43

cheers. those statistics mean absolutly nothing. i couldn't bf my dd, despite desperately wanting to, because i wasn't shown how in hospital. as such, she was so badly latched on isuffered tissue damage. she failed to gan any weight, and my health visitor didn't help me rectify the issue.
i spent two weeks in tears after giving her the first bottle of formula, and attempted relactation to no avail. leading to further guilt and misery.
which is the height of luxury, i'm sure.

ElieRM · 11/08/2009 17:49

oh and if you hadn't wanted to cause trouble, i repeat: do not drag irrelevant and emotive issues into a thread which is already emotive.

Longtalljosie · 11/08/2009 17:51

Physiologically, your 1% figure is true.

But it doesn't include those who find it difficult - a far higher number - and who also don't have access to the necessary support to allow them to rectify problems.

So, once again, it is one nybom rule for the middle class and another, harsher, one for the less well off - despite the fact they are far less likely to have access to support networks beyond the NHS.

EllieRM -

K999 · 11/08/2009 17:52

Was just about to say the same thing Elie cos like the bf/ff debate hasnt ever been done on MN before has it...

KembleTwins · 11/08/2009 17:52

I'm totally with you ElieRM. I desperately wanted to bf my DTs and spent far too much time crying and feeling like a failure when it just didn't work. I don't think I'm in the fabled 1% of women who can't physically do it, and no one was pressuring me NOT to do it, but the welfare of my babies, who were pitifully tiny, and only kept out of hospital by a midwife who visited several times a day after she saw the state I was in when the paediatricain wanted to re-admit us, was my priority. Even though I understood the logic of that, I felt dreadfully guily about it, and still do, three years on.
Dr Nybom (taking note of your PhD) - asserting that FF is a CHOICE is a very nasty thing to do, especially given that it comes with your customary superior tone, and the strong suggestion that it is the WRONG choice. Oh to be as perfect as you.

Longtalljosie · 11/08/2009 17:53

Ooh Morloth - do you have a recipe?

juicyjolly · 11/08/2009 17:55

curiosity.....what happened? weren't you the one trying to flood this thread last night?
And yes, nybom was getting called names, so lets not try to say it didn't happen eh!

Why is what nybom saying getting twisted.
I think there is a perverse enjoyment by some (maybe it makes them feel superior or is it just sheep following) to want to try and belittle this op.

K999 · 11/08/2009 17:57

Perverse enjoyment I save for the bum sex threads...

josiejo79 · 11/08/2009 18:00

Couple of things;

Firstly I am pretty sure that i am correct in saying that calling someone who is not White 'Coloured' is offensive if they are from certain parts of the world. I am led to believe that some South African races prefer to be called coloured however i am not an expert in this area and wouoldn't profess to be. I do however think that the use of the term 'Coloured' can be seen as offensive. I once worked with a young asian man who had colour matched his skin at B&Q on their paint machine to find that he was actually creme caramel and took great joy in telling anyone this if they called him a paki.

I agree that there have been a number of comments on this thread that have demaded that nybom tells everyone where her country of origin of is. I would imagine that this will be a country that is non european and therefore is why Nybom feels that if she were to tell everyone where she was from it would be possible to determine her skin colour. I personally do not see what skin colour has to do with this argument and am unsure really why it seems to have been dragged into it all.

Secondly - It is a stastic that only 1% of women are unable to breast feed, however i don't believe that this stastic takes into account the thousands of women who get little or no support from their midwifes until it is too late. I know that in my local hospital the midwifes are rushed off their feet and simply don't have time to spend with each mother to support them nursing. I think that you are exceptionally lucky if you get BF down pat the first time that you do it and dont need any help. It is also not necessarily a choice to stop breastfeeding earlier than you might want to. A friend of mine who returned to work early due to her and her husbands financial situation had to stop BF as there was no where for her to express and store her milk at work and she couldn't express enough in the times that she was home. She was devastated about this, so for her it was definiltey not a luxury to change to FF. Surely it is a woman's right to chose whether they BF or FF and a fail to see that chosing how you feed your baby is a luxury lifestyle choice. I for one thought about FF so that my husband wouldn't feel left out and would be able to enjoy in this part of bringing up our baby.

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