to not understand why so many poor people... PART 2

[nybom]

As things have calmed down a little now, despite DH getting involved , I will try and explain once more what I meant to express by OP.

It boils down to:

I have noticed that in this society a lot of money is spent unwisely/for luxuries and increasingly so. This does indeed occur, as many of you have pointed out, regardless of level of income, throughout the social stratum. What I don't understand is, how the very poor people spend/are able to spend money on luxuries whilst compromising on the basic requirements (such as nutritious food for their children). The examples I mentioned were from my circle of friends, not generalisations.

I was bringing up examples from poor people because if a wealthy person fritters his income away for luxuries it doesn?t affect basic requirements such as food, (at least I have never ever come across anybody), however if you don't have any money to spend, it does.

Before you get enraged, I'm not addressing poor people as a whole, I don?t mean disabled people or people with poor health (mental or physical), nor people made redundant, nor women (or men) left by their partners, or any one else who unexpectedly and by now fault of his or her own has got him- or herself into that situation. Neither do I mean poor people who indulge themselves with their own saved money or money given to them by someone else.

I don't think it is fair that MNs stereotype "the rich", and have a go at them. But how dare anyone say anything negative about "the poor". That is hypocritical.

I only listed how I spend my money to demonstrate that it can be done, not to say how ?great? I am. If I can do it anybody can.

Please don?t make any assumptions what I do or not do in RL to actively help make things better and support people in need...
And I have a great life, thank you, and not a boring one, either. But curiosity is human nature (just look at the topics of women?s magazines, don?t any of you buy those?), and if you walk through life with open eyes, you just notices things. Also, my academic background is in sociology, so I have a genuine interest in wanting to understand why people do what they do. No finger pointing or accusing intended.

Finally, I?d like to respond to some specific points which have been repeatedly been raised:

RE car engine: it is an absolute myth that it is cheaper to leave the engine on rather than turn it off and on again a short while later (ask any car mechanic). In some countries you risk a fine if you don?t turn your engine off at (certain) traffic lights/road works! They?re not doing that for the sake of it. It?s just unnecessary pollution and a waist of money! It is not a matter of ?treating yourself? if the husband waits in the car with running engine and the wife goes shopping in a supermarket (and it is not extremely cold or hot (aircon))! It?s just stupid. I don?t imply you should turn your engine off at stop and go traffic jams, but those where you come to a standstill, where after 2 or 3 minutes of nothing happening it would be wise to turn the engine off (even if you had to turn it on again in 1 minute it would save money). Same with ?popping in? at shops/dropping friend of etc...

RE kids parties: there?s nothing wrong with kids parties per se! Of course it's nice to create something fun for them. But why have branded accessories right down to the bags the kids take home? Again, extra expenditures and extra waste. A nice party isn?t made nice by spending loads! A (simple) selfmade cake (not one of those branded one with loads of artificial colouring, ugh), and a couple of party games is all the children need to be really really HAPPY. The bags are thrown away, as are most of the contents, it is cheeper and easier to use kitchen towel or plastic bags for sandwhiches plus you can choose what you put in the bags.

RE cut fruit: It is still absolutely beyond me why you would spend twice as much money (or more) for precut fruit (not tins!) if you could easily cut it yourself, particulary if you are poor and only have a 5 pound shopping budget.

The UK has become a very materialistic society (but that is a different topic), maybe I just recognise it more as I?m from a different cultural background.

then start a thread about the UK's being materialistic.

you're the one buying into it by listening to whatever song that is, much less finding the lyrics, and buying trashy magazines.

why frame it in the context of only 'the poor' frittering away on what you consider to be luxuries?

i'm starting to agree with you, sandy22.

Expat: as much as I would like to answer everyone of the comments "N" makes I don't want to add to the big ego she obviously carries around with her, having the thread grow and grow obviously delights her.

expat don't be ridiculous! shall i hold my hands over my ears whenever i hear the song in public?!? i don't buy songs, and who said i buy those trashy mags?!

now if you don't understand the link between materialsim and consumerism then i'm obviously wasting my time answering your questions.

Nybom: If you are wasting your time answering questions then why don't you just stop! Anyway I have spent enough time on this rubbish I'm off to Asda, to leave the car running, to spend all my money of trashy mags, cigs, chocolate for the kids and cut up fruit because I am one of those Brits!

Nybom... You failed to acknowledge my point yesterday when I gave valid reasons on why people who are struggling financialy, and why people may be on benefits who do not fit into your criteria.

You tried to be clever and tell me I didnt know what I was talking about because I said I hadnt read the whole thread.

This was after I had given you first hand examples of "poor" people spending money on luxuries that they cant afford.

If you feel so strongly about saying where you originate from, fair enough.

BUT you could have just said "In other parts of the world, for example China, America or Holand" they have this kind of approach to SSS. That way other people could have decided for themselves if they agreed with that part of your argument.

you said yourself you buy 'women's magazines'.

i go out in public all time, haven't heard the song you're talking about.

i think it's a matter of finding whatever is you seek out.

and yes, you are seriously wasting your time starting threads like this. because it's obvious you're not interested in taking on board any post that doesn't agree with your own, narrow-minded viewpoint.

i need to go buy some designer trainers for the DDs who are starting school next week.

there are cheaper ones, but their grandmother sent them some money and asked me to buy them some nice trainers they like with the money, and they chose some designer ones.

Starting from scratch, to buy organic ingredients from Tesco (I checked prices online)

Organic butter 250g - £1.15
Organic eggs (m) 6 - £1.82
Organic SR flour - £1.00
Caster sugar - 68p

That makes the cost of the cake, without the cost of the electricity/gas, somewhere around £2.50 - which fits in with nybom's claim. However, it allows nothing for the decoration of the cake, even with simple butter icing and some sweets (and a plain victoria sponge, with no embellishment whatsoever, would be a little mean for a birthday cake - and surely even a 'poor' child deserves a bit of a treat on their birthday.

So - buttercream means another pack of butter at £1.15 and 500g of icing sugar at 68p - that puts the total price of the cake up to £4.33, plus a couple more pounds for some organic sweets - Tesco don't list any online so I can't check those prices - and you have a cost of nearly £6.50 - sufficient to buy a shop bought cake.

the song is by the Pussycat Dolls and they're not from the UK, they're from the US so don't see how those lyrics are relevant

yes but you actual cost of buying the stuff is more than £3 - it's £4.65 based on those prices.

OK they can use the rest of the ingredients for other stuff - but as a "one off" cost it's more than £3

But the next line of that song is 'Be careful what you wish for cos you just might get it' surely that is hinting at the fact that is not all its cracked up to be.

I have ex-friends like you Nybom, the kind that dont 'believe' DS2 has a disability because he isnt in a wheelchair.

cannot believe there's another thread. cannot believe op thinks the pussycat dolls are useful for illustrating any kind of point whatsoever. 'when i grow up' is hardly john lennon's 'imagine'is it?
haven't read all the posts. but i would like to ask:
in your orignal post you made a comment about poor women ffing their babies. in this op you comment on
What I don't understand is, how the very poor people spend/are able to spend money on luxuries whilst compromising on the basic requirements (such as nutritious food for their children).
could you explain to me how formula milk is a luxury? or why you thought it appropriate to bring in such an emotive topic, when many many women (myself included) rich and poor cannot breastfeed for whatever reason and feel guilty about it?

The question I asked didn't get an answer: how wuld you solve this as a problem then?

As far as I can see, you either change it so tightly that you risk punishing the non-feckless (not my description, from thread) or you turn a blind eye and accept that in order not to negatively affect those who are in the palce they are through no fault of their own, this will happen.

Micr managing every case right down an assessment of epersonal reasons for ending up in that situation would cost bucket loads so is not really an option.

We have responsibilities here to report anyone at risk of abuse (though my own children are small and this through genetics (confirmed by 3 paediatric checks over the years) and to report anyone we feel may be cheating the benefits system.

otherwise- it's the dilemma above: persoanlly i'drather accept a few will use the system in a way it is not intended than cause struggling to anyone who has already had their choices removed (becuase after all that is what poverty steals more than anything else: your choices. Perhaps in fact that explains a lot of the OP_ when all your choices have gone, you can't move house, get a job, etc etc you wield what little power you have on the tiny things. Like buying 'cut' (by which I presume you mean pre-prepeared rather than cut, as cut usually means picked) fruit.

Also just a small aside: kids aprties.... if you shop wisely (E-bay etc) it really is not any cheaper to do a non branded party. I've just done a Hungry caterpillar party for ds3, and his friend (ASD) is obsessed with Spongebob and the specific accessorries I purchased just for him didn't cost me any more than the generic stuff I mainly used otherwise. But I did ytake some time to track down bargains.

Cakes deiscussion is making me PMSL

I can buty a quite nice cake over the spar for £1. Or I can make one for around the same price becuase I have the stuff in my cupboards* however the reason most mums at the boys old school sent in pre bought ones for fetes etc is one you're looking at anything ab ove basic, the savings disappear massively.

• This does not apply to most cakes here, gluten free flours usually require a mortgage.

all i can say is 'why'?
and also 'As things have calmed down a little now, despite DH getting involved , I will try and explain once more what I meant to express by OP.'
the onyl reason things calmed down is because the thread ended. finished. ceased to be. is no longer. etc.
so, as it calmed down, and you were no longer the victim of disgusting insults and vicious personal attacks why start it again? why?
and what about the formula feeding? i really do want to know why you brought that up.
arggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

Nybom: No insult about your Phd, (I assume it is a post graduate doctorate after completing a degree in something - not sure how it works in the country you achieved this, unless it is the UK of course) but truly surprised that if you have studied to that level then the ignorance and arrogance you show on this thread is beyond belief really.

As for 4yr olds listening to pussycat dolls - my 4yr olds never did. Their musical influences are 60's motown and 70's disco, with the odd Postman Pat thrown in. However I view music as one of my biggest passions and in believe I have truly awesome taste in the stuff. (Sorry girls but I really DO love my music!)

As for you thinking the tone is becoming racist on this thread - I think you need to look at your own behaviour. I am Scottish living in England, I have friends and family from different countries and feel no racism towards them at all.

The racism card always pops up when somebody feels they are losing the argument.

RACISM:

1. [n] - the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races

1. [n] - discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

Considering you won't actually confirm which country you come from how could it be racism if nobody knows which race you are from?

I am off to pick up my hubby from the station and a hard days work at the office in our petrol guzzling mpv.

You're right about the total cost, FAQ - I knew that if I put the total cost, Nybom would have pulled me up on it.

I am now that sad that I have searched for organic sweets online, and the sweets on the first site I found seem horrendously expensive - £1.69 for a pack of lollies and £1.99 for a pack of banana chews? And organic caster sugar £2.22 for 500g?

Based on these prices, I couldn't make a decent birthday cake for one of the dses, from organic ingredients, for much under £9!! Of course I do spoil my boys by making them something a bit special - perhaps Nybom's children are happy with a plain, undecorated victoria sponge.

If she was baking a plain victoria sponge, she would need to factor in organic jam. Bet that's pricey.

You can get fab, massive cakes in Costco....they feed about 500 kids and cost a tenner.....probably works at about 5p a slab...

nybom - have to say playing the racism card is a little pathetic. Especially considering most of your posts have been directly aimed at people living in the UK and have been emphasising the point you are from somewhere else, could be considered to have come from a feeling of racial superiority. Since you won't tell us what your country of origin is how can anyone even be being racist against you. What nonsense.

I doubt you could have attained a PhD in this country when you are so terrible at English. What nonsense. What did you research for this imaginary PhD?

i think she's tripped up. perhaps 'self made' cake means those packs of cake mix you can get with cartoon sugar papaer faces and that.
which are, arguably self made. but expensive. unlikely to be organic. never make as many cakes as they say they will.
s'all bollocks really.
WHY WON'T SHE ANSWER MY BLOODY QUESTION???

curiosity- tory social policy from the eighties i should think. her main research material was the daily mail.

"Since you won't tell us what your country of origin is how can anyone even be being racist against you."

because you know i'm not from this country, that's why!

hmm - so if you see a coloured person in the streets and call him names, then it isn't racist because you don't know what country he's from?

elieRM what was your "bloody question"?

'okay - hypothetical situation (based on friend):

single mum on benefits, hasn't worked since birth of first child. normal family background. has had many oportunities (job offers) and ideas what she wants to do, but never does it. has other alternative possibilities of income. doesn't follow these up either. just complains about financial situation. parties all through the week and at weekends, spends money on booze and cigarettes. lives for the moment. so skint from partying that she and kids live of tins by the end of the month. kids are small and thin for their age.'

Right, so she's a single mum with more than one child - why? People normally only end up on their own with children if something has gone wrong in their lives and they've been hurt.

What is a 'normal family background'?

What 'opportunities' has she had exactly and why has she turned them down?

What are her 'other possibilities of income'?

Lives for the moment - In your opinion only.

Lives on tins by end of month - sounds implausible. If you're on benefits you're richest at the end of the month because your housing gets paid before the rent comes out.

Kids are small and thin for their age - wtf? You're implying that they are so malnourished by her deliberate neglect that they are showing signs physically. WHY WOULDN"T YOU REPORT HER????