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to not understand why so many poor people... PART 2

1000 replies

nybom · 10/08/2009 11:59

As things have calmed down a little now, despite DH getting involved , I will try and explain once more what I meant to express by OP.

It boils down to:

I have noticed that in this society a lot of money is spent unwisely/for luxuries and increasingly so. This does indeed occur, as many of you have pointed out, regardless of level of income, throughout the social stratum. What I don't understand is, how the very poor people spend/are able to spend money on luxuries whilst compromising on the basic requirements (such as nutritious food for their children). The examples I mentioned were from my circle of friends, not generalisations.

I was bringing up examples from poor people because if a wealthy person fritters his income away for luxuries it doesn?t affect basic requirements such as food, (at least I have never ever come across anybody), however if you don't have any money to spend, it does.

Before you get enraged, I'm not addressing poor people as a whole, I don?t mean disabled people or people with poor health (mental or physical), nor people made redundant, nor women (or men) left by their partners, or any one else who unexpectedly and by now fault of his or her own has got him- or herself into that situation. Neither do I mean poor people who indulge themselves with their own saved money or money given to them by someone else.

I don't think it is fair that MNs stereotype "the rich", and have a go at them. But how dare anyone say anything negative about "the poor". That is hypocritical.

I only listed how I spend my money to demonstrate that it can be done, not to say how ?great? I am. If I can do it anybody can.

Please don?t make any assumptions what I do or not do in RL to actively help make things better and support people in need...
And I have a great life, thank you, and not a boring one, either. But curiosity is human nature (just look at the topics of women?s magazines, don?t any of you buy those?), and if you walk through life with open eyes, you just notices things. Also, my academic background is in sociology, so I have a genuine interest in wanting to understand why people do what they do. No finger pointing or accusing intended.

Finally, I?d like to respond to some specific points which have been repeatedly been raised:

RE car engine: it is an absolute myth that it is cheaper to leave the engine on rather than turn it off and on again a short while later (ask any car mechanic). In some countries you risk a fine if you don?t turn your engine off at (certain) traffic lights/road works! They?re not doing that for the sake of it. It?s just unnecessary pollution and a waist of money! It is not a matter of ?treating yourself? if the husband waits in the car with running engine and the wife goes shopping in a supermarket (and it is not extremely cold or hot (aircon))! It?s just stupid. I don?t imply you should turn your engine off at stop and go traffic jams, but those where you come to a standstill, where after 2 or 3 minutes of nothing happening it would be wise to turn the engine off (even if you had to turn it on again in 1 minute it would save money). Same with ?popping in? at shops/dropping friend of etc...

RE kids parties: there?s nothing wrong with kids parties per se! Of course it's nice to create something fun for them. But why have branded accessories right down to the bags the kids take home? Again, extra expenditures and extra waste. A nice party isn?t made nice by spending loads! A (simple) selfmade cake (not one of those branded one with loads of artificial colouring, ugh), and a couple of party games is all the children need to be really really HAPPY. The bags are thrown away, as are most of the contents, it is cheeper and easier to use kitchen towel or plastic bags for sandwhiches plus you can choose what you put in the bags.

RE cut fruit: It is still absolutely beyond me why you would spend twice as much money (or more) for precut fruit (not tins!) if you could easily cut it yourself, particulary if you are poor and only have a 5 pound shopping budget.

The UK has become a very materialistic society (but that is a different topic), maybe I just recognise it more as I?m from a different cultural background.

OP posts:
nybom · 11/08/2009 12:46

I DIDN'T SPEAK ABOUT IT.

i don't want racist remarks, so i'm not telling. simple as.

OP posts:
curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 12:46

nybom - who does fall into the bad category?

Why have you not reported your friends who starve their children to SS?

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 12:49

You're not judging us again are you nybom? You're not calling us racist are you? Not when you haven't met us or seen any evidence to cause you to believe we might be racist? That's quite a serious accusation to make. I am not racist, I am offended you might assume I was.

Longtalljosie · 11/08/2009 12:49

"I DIDN'T SPEAK ABOUT IT.

i don't want racist remarks, so i'm not telling. simple as. "

Nonsense. You just don't want your arguments facing any scrutiny. Which is why you've given us practically no information about these people you say you know with the false nails, shop-bought cakes and the pre-cut fruit, as well.

expatinscotland · 11/08/2009 12:49

racist remarks are not tolerated on MN and removed asap.

anyone knows that.

but you won't reveal where you're from because you know your argument is ridiculouse.

whatevas.

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 12:50

especially as it would be a judgement you had made without meeting me.

FAQtothefuture · 11/08/2009 12:58

"4. again: I ONLY OBJECT IF CHILDREN SUFFER, and i've bever seen a case where a child had to compromise on food when a more wealthier family spent money on luxury items but i've seen it in poorer families.

  1. it all adds up. also, making a cake costs 2 odd pounds or so. that leaves 13 pounds for fruit and veg. "
  1. I have - I know of families where they don't "have time" to cook proper meals so the kids are fed ready meals and expensive processed stuff
  1. If you don't have the ingredients making a cake costs more than £2 - and that's before you take into account the gas/electric cost (and a large number of families on low incomes are on a meter - which is in itself more expensive.
AutumnLady · 11/08/2009 12:59

Could it be that nybom is a little scared of having a balanced discussion?

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 13:01

nybom wants MN to like her. She doesn't want to explore an interesting subject using her skills as a sociologist.

nybom · 11/08/2009 13:01

"you" plural not singular, curiosity. could be you, could not be you. i don't know, how could i? so not judgemental.

so a comment telling me to bugger off to my own country is not a racist remark...?

OP posts:
Fruitysunshine · 11/08/2009 13:03

Nybom - what is your academic qualification in Sociology if you don't mind me asking?

expatinscotland · 11/08/2009 13:09

'so a comment telling me to bugger off to my own country is not a racist remark...?'

Um, no.

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 13:10

That last post actually makes no sense. If I understand your point correctly you are criticising me for being judgemental? I am not the one who claimed I wasn't judging people. That was you.

I didn't tell you to bugger off to your own country.

I have said that anyone who didn't like paying tax to a country that supports the undeserving poor could choose to live somewhere else. That was before I was aware you were even from another country. I still maintain that no person is obliged to live anywhere in this global economy. If I disagreed with the UK's benefits system I could live anywhere else in the world. By paying tax you are agreeing to support this system.

Someone did tell you to bugger off to your own country but IIRC they later explained that this was not a racist comment but was directed at you because they thought you were saying your country was great. i.e. well if your country is so much better why are you in this country? If you read back I said I was offended by that comment too.

NanaNina · 11/08/2009 13:23

I haven't followed this thread nybom but I can see it has generated a lot of interest to say the least!

You are differentiating between the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor. That has been the basis of social policy in this society for ever and a day, and it is what causes such a divided society and such a gap between the "haves" and the "have nots."

Maybe I can help you to understand that if you are part of the "undeserving poor" life is very bleak indeed. You exist rather than live and simply don't have the motivation to use what little money you have wisely. We live in a consumer society and the "undeserving" poor are part of that society and have the same need as the rest of us to acquire nice things for themselves and their kids.

It is very easy to criticise on the sidelines when you don't have to make the choice whether to "heat or eat" and know that nothing is ever going to change for you.

I am surprised that your background in sociology has not given you more insight into these matters.

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 13:29

nybom - why have you not reported your friends who starve their children to SS?

Name a hypothetical situation where someone is undeserving.

Tell us where you originate from so we can understand your argument about social security systems.

AutumnLady · 11/08/2009 13:39

By witholding whereabouts she comes from is just a power trip. I have met many people in my career who use this very tactic to bully their point across, which is what nybom appears to do with both of these threads. It's all very well to look at these situations and start a discussion, but if your whole objective is to score points and get MN to agree with you, then you are going about it all wrong. Have a well thought out, logical arguement prepared BUT be aware that people may take offence or just not agree with you.

I happen to not agree with you.

nybom · 11/08/2009 14:06

okay - hypothetical situation (based on friend):

single mum on benefits, hasn't worked since birth of first child. normal family background. has had many oportunities (job offers) and ideas what she wants to do, but never does it. has other alternative possibilities of income. doesn't follow these up either. just complains about financial situation. parties all through the week and at weekends, spends money on booze and cigarettes. lives for the moment. so skint from partying that she and kids live of tins by the end of the month. kids are small and thin for their age.

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 11/08/2009 14:07

so report her to SS for neglect rather than start threads on the net about her.

nybom · 11/08/2009 14:08

autumn lady et al. - not power trip but self protection.

OP posts:
FAQtothefuture · 11/08/2009 14:15

ok so she's a single mum

  1. That makes taking up job opporutities much harder. I saw some fabulous jobs (that I probably had a chance of getting) when I was single - but childcare was going to be nigh on impossible - not so hard for DS2 and 3- but DS1 at 8yrs old would have been stuck with no-where to go.

Then of course there's the issue of being worse off if when she comes off benefits.

  1. "alternative possibilities of income"? what money on the side so she's commiting benefits fraud.
  1. You're worried about her kids - report her.
  1. Very glad you're not my "friend" - as you don't sound like much of a friend to me!
josiejo79 · 11/08/2009 14:15

hypothetically of course...

Surely Nybom you are just as bad as your friend as your hypothetical situation would suggest that you have chosen to do nothing about this but to sit back, log on to your computer and winge about it on MN for all to see. Surely in a perfect world you should hypothetically speak to this 'Friend' about her behaviour and offer your support and ability to budget to help her not malnourish her children?

AutumnLady · 11/08/2009 14:16

Agree with expat - report them to the proper authorities rather than airing it on an internet forum which is here for support

PeachyLaPeche · 11/08/2009 14:16

Nybom you no doubt have several reasons for not giving your country or origin, but MN is not racist.Long term posters have been booted offforracist comments, and I suspect I'd be quick to pick up on I came across given my backgrouns /speciality (which is one not given here yet

nybom · 11/08/2009 14:16

fruitysunshine

PhD

(nybom sits back and waits for nasty comments)

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 11/08/2009 14:27

Why did you not report your friend to the authorities?

Surely if the children are undernourished it is a matter of neglect.

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