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to not understand why so many poor people... PART 2

1000 replies

nybom · 10/08/2009 11:59

As things have calmed down a little now, despite DH getting involved , I will try and explain once more what I meant to express by OP.

It boils down to:

I have noticed that in this society a lot of money is spent unwisely/for luxuries and increasingly so. This does indeed occur, as many of you have pointed out, regardless of level of income, throughout the social stratum. What I don't understand is, how the very poor people spend/are able to spend money on luxuries whilst compromising on the basic requirements (such as nutritious food for their children). The examples I mentioned were from my circle of friends, not generalisations.

I was bringing up examples from poor people because if a wealthy person fritters his income away for luxuries it doesn?t affect basic requirements such as food, (at least I have never ever come across anybody), however if you don't have any money to spend, it does.

Before you get enraged, I'm not addressing poor people as a whole, I don?t mean disabled people or people with poor health (mental or physical), nor people made redundant, nor women (or men) left by their partners, or any one else who unexpectedly and by now fault of his or her own has got him- or herself into that situation. Neither do I mean poor people who indulge themselves with their own saved money or money given to them by someone else.

I don't think it is fair that MNs stereotype "the rich", and have a go at them. But how dare anyone say anything negative about "the poor". That is hypocritical.

I only listed how I spend my money to demonstrate that it can be done, not to say how ?great? I am. If I can do it anybody can.

Please don?t make any assumptions what I do or not do in RL to actively help make things better and support people in need...
And I have a great life, thank you, and not a boring one, either. But curiosity is human nature (just look at the topics of women?s magazines, don?t any of you buy those?), and if you walk through life with open eyes, you just notices things. Also, my academic background is in sociology, so I have a genuine interest in wanting to understand why people do what they do. No finger pointing or accusing intended.

Finally, I?d like to respond to some specific points which have been repeatedly been raised:

RE car engine: it is an absolute myth that it is cheaper to leave the engine on rather than turn it off and on again a short while later (ask any car mechanic). In some countries you risk a fine if you don?t turn your engine off at (certain) traffic lights/road works! They?re not doing that for the sake of it. It?s just unnecessary pollution and a waist of money! It is not a matter of ?treating yourself? if the husband waits in the car with running engine and the wife goes shopping in a supermarket (and it is not extremely cold or hot (aircon))! It?s just stupid. I don?t imply you should turn your engine off at stop and go traffic jams, but those where you come to a standstill, where after 2 or 3 minutes of nothing happening it would be wise to turn the engine off (even if you had to turn it on again in 1 minute it would save money). Same with ?popping in? at shops/dropping friend of etc...

RE kids parties: there?s nothing wrong with kids parties per se! Of course it's nice to create something fun for them. But why have branded accessories right down to the bags the kids take home? Again, extra expenditures and extra waste. A nice party isn?t made nice by spending loads! A (simple) selfmade cake (not one of those branded one with loads of artificial colouring, ugh), and a couple of party games is all the children need to be really really HAPPY. The bags are thrown away, as are most of the contents, it is cheeper and easier to use kitchen towel or plastic bags for sandwhiches plus you can choose what you put in the bags.

RE cut fruit: It is still absolutely beyond me why you would spend twice as much money (or more) for precut fruit (not tins!) if you could easily cut it yourself, particulary if you are poor and only have a 5 pound shopping budget.

The UK has become a very materialistic society (but that is a different topic), maybe I just recognise it more as I?m from a different cultural background.

OP posts:
Longtalljosie · 11/08/2009 10:40

It's impossible to have a proper conversation with you nybom because you refuse to answer any questions, or engage with any points. You just seem to want to rant.

Here are the (relevant) questions people have asked you

  1. Who the hell are these "people" you say you know and why aren't you taking it up with them?
  2. You've compared the social security situation in the UK with your home country - well, then, why can't we? What is your home country?
  3. You say some poor people are more deserving than others - without walking in their shoes, how on each do you know who's deserving and who's not?
  4. Given that everyone, rich and poor, has the odd luxury to make life worth living, are you also saying richer people shouldn't be allowed to blow their budget to make themselves happy, or is that extreme level of self-denial something only the poorer are expected to exhibit?
  5. How would a shop-bought birthday cake, bought once a year for (presumably) £15 make an appreciable difference to anyone's annual budget?
StinkyFart · 11/08/2009 11:01

C'mon nybom I want an explanation of the wierdy x posts between you and 'mrnybom'

nybom · 11/08/2009 11:09

oh stinkyfart, it's all water under the bridge now - DH explained why that occured yesterday evening. please look it up.

OP posts:
curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 11:10

Sorry for the flooding. I can't take this thread when it gets serious. Nybom is insane I think. Were are nybom and mr nybom from? Must be an amazing place to have such an excellent welfare system that is able to distinguish between the deserving and the undeserving. Do you think maybe she's a bit of a fantasist? I think she's Essex born and bred...

nybom · 11/08/2009 11:19

longtalljosie
i HAVE answered htese questions, but here we go again (will use C & P if i get asked the questions one more time):

  1. these "people" are friends of mine (some closer than others), and we HAVE indeed discussed these issues.
  2. i chose not to reveal my home country. it won't add any value/new dimension to the discussion. we've had racist comments thrown at us in RL, and seeing how abusive some MNs are i'd rather not to be honest.
  3. i never said that.
  4. again: I ONLY OBJECT IF CHILDREN SUFFER, and i've bever seen a case where a child had to compromise on food when a more wealthier family spent money on luxury items but i've seen it in poorer families.
  5. it all adds up. also, making a cake costs 2 odd pounds or so. that leaves 13 pounds for fruit and veg.
OP posts:
curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 11:37

Why are you friends with neglectful parents? That doesn't make you a very nice person. Your point is that you have watched your friends starve their children so they could have something for themselves instead?! Why didn't you report this to SS?

If people are that close to the breadline that they really have to choose between cigs and food they couldn't really afford a car or a kids party or a cake they had made themselves....

Your arguments are lame.

lame
Adjective

  1. disabled or crippled in the legs or feet
  2. weak; unconvincing: lame arguments

It will add value to the conversation to know what country you originate from because you and 'your husband' have offered it up more than once as having a better welfare system than ours. How can we judge for ourselves if you don't reveal where you are from?

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 11:41

I think the reason is probably that the welfare system in your country is actually notoriously bad. That there are probably many, many poor people and poverty probably kills a significant number of the population.

Stayingsunnygirl · 11/08/2009 11:43

Nybom - as it happens, I have just bought the ingredients to make a birthday cake for ds1, and it has definitely come to more than £2. He chose a victoria sandwich filled and covered with buttercream, and decorated with sweets.

The sweets alone cost £2 (and I bought Asda own brand). Butter for the cake and the butter cream cost nearly £2 though there will be some left over. Flour, a few pence, sugar and icing sugar, probably £1 - £1.50, and £1 for eggs. If you include the cost of the electricity to cook the cake, that's getting close to £7, for which you can buy a character cake or other birthday cake in Asda/Tesco.

And you haven't answered longtalljosie's point, that you are happy to compare and contrast the social security system in your home country and the UK, but will not give us the opportunity to do the same thing - that is disrespectful and manipulative.

pingping · 11/08/2009 11:45

LMAO @ This thread.

nybom why does it bother you so much what poor people spend there money on?

I haven't read the whole thread 433 posts is to much.

But it really isn't any of your business what people spend there money on rich or poor.

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 11:52

pingping - it is because, as I understand it, nybom believes that the undeserving poor should not be allowed to choose what they spend their money on. She is from abroad originally and thinks where she is from does a good job of determining who is deserving and undeserving but she won't tell us where that country is.

I think the majority of us simply believe being poor makes you deserving but I think nybom stipulates that only those who are poor through something which is not their own fault are deserving.

nybom · 11/08/2009 12:14

curiosity
so, if we told you, then you would have enough knowledge to be able to make comparisons between the UK and my home country??? THAT is a lame argument (as in 2)

OP posts:
curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 12:18

I'm not sure why that is a lame argument. You're the one who made the comparison in the beginning. Why are you denying everybody the opportunity to do the same? If you hadn't brought it up no-one woould be any the wiser.

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 12:23

You thought bringing your country's benefits system into the argument was a valid point to make, not me or anyone else...

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 12:24

are you saying your own argument was lame?

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 12:25

do we have another inadvertent admission of idiocy a la 'nybom's husband'..?

Longtalljosie · 11/08/2009 12:26

On my third point - that you argue some poor people are more deserving than others - you absolutely do say that because you list people whose situation you don't disapprove of (eg carers, those who are disabled, those made redundant). Everybody else seems to belong in the "bad" category

Stayingsunnygirl · 11/08/2009 12:26

Nybom - if you told us what country you came from, we'd have a far better chance of comparing the two social security systems than we have at the moment!! What's so hard to understand about that? Why is that a lame argument?

nybom · 11/08/2009 12:33

curiosity

DH was ASKED about our social security system.

i ask again: how will you be able to compare? do you have an infinite knowledge of all the world's SSS and/or a knowledge of all foreign languages? i don't think so (apart from the not-adding-value-to-the-dsicussion reason there are many significant reasons for me not to say where i come from)

OP posts:
curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 12:35

I'm not sure what she means is lame.

The argument that if she is bringing her country's system into it we should know where she's from so we can compare it too.

OR

The comparison between her country and the UK.

Either way it only makes her look stupid.

Stayingsunnygirl · 11/08/2009 12:35

No - but we do have google and the ability to do research!!

Stayingsunnygirl · 11/08/2009 12:37

Curiosity - why do I get the feeling that however compelling and logical our arguments in favour of her telling us her country of origin, nybom is never going to tell, because that would involve conceding the point, and she's far too precious to do that!!

Fruitysunshine · 11/08/2009 12:39

I was just about to say Stayingsunnygirl that the OP is loving this withholding of information. It would appear she feels powerful and that her argument is superior without you ladies knowing the information you ask for.

I maintain she still has no idea what she is talking about.

curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 12:41

nybom - You're not judging me are you? That would be terribly inconsistent. You're not assuming things about what I do or don't know or have experience of without meeting me are you?

So, only the deserving poor should be able to choose what they spend their money on and people are only allowed to contribute to arguments you have started if you have approved their method of arguing and decided they are knowlegable enough to be worthy.

If you didn't want to discuss where you we from you shouldn't have spoken about it.

Sounds like a good way to never be proved wrong! Sounds incredibly valuable from a sociological perspective. I have to say you must be the worst sociologist I have ever met!

nybom · 11/08/2009 12:43

lontalljossi no! now you're assuming things. i listed those people because there was a MASS of responses from people such as, riven (?) who felt i was adressing them. so i wanted to clarify that i DIDN'T mean them. it doesn't mean that all others automatically fall into the "bad" category. what nonsense!

OP posts:
curiositykilled · 11/08/2009 12:44

I still believe that the OP must be witholding the info because her country actually is fairly obviously not up to much when it comes to looking after the weak. The little she said about it didn't make it sound too great tbh.

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