to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

Exactly TiggyR. You've summed it up perfectly in your post on Thurs 23.01.17.

Every time there's another thread like this (and i'm sure there will be many many more on mumsnet ) that post should be repeated in its entirety.

Tiggy'spost is good but fails to rexcognise one thing

The reason I get defensive every time is twofold:

1. Not everyone knows the reasons we ae on benefits- I don't particualrlyt want them prinyted on a ts shirt neither do I want dodgy looks as I head into the benefits centre, personally I prefer to assume a don't judge becuase you don't know attitude (though of course I DO jusdge, am human)

1. The main reason I get defensive on here is guilt. It's not my fault the system works against me0- as Riven'spost of today showes on another thread Ic an't even retrain to a job I can manage becuase when you have a degree funding is denied (had wanted to do a TA course before). The vert same work ethic that is valued so highly on MN and drives most of us toprfer to pay for ourselves when we can makes me feel like a second class citizend and bridle ate very comment, absolutely.

One issue with tiggy here - who gets to decide whether someone else's decisions were sensible or not? It's a ridiculous point to make.

I just wish people would spend more time concentrating on the good/bad things in their own lives and stop bothering about what they think others have or haven't got that is better or worse than them. You'll never know what it's like to live in someone else's life.

If you don't like your tax money supporting ppl on benefits move to another country that doesn't do it or be quiet.

If you are not happy with your own life, take steps to change it. If you can't, try to look at the good things and not worry about the bad things that you really can't change.

We are fortunate in this country to not have any truly poor people and everybody should be comforted by the fact that no matter what may happen to them in their lives they would never have to live a terrible, poor existence like people have in the past and do in other countries.

curiosity - I would beg to differ on your last point. Take a visit to your local charity for the homeless.

Peachy - I didn't fail to recognise that! That's the whole point of what I said! When people moan about wasters making foolish selfish choices how can you possibly even think that applies to you, unless deep down you know you've made foolish selfish choices??! Why bother to instantly defend yourself in something that doesn't apply to you? If someone started a thread slating a drunk driver who killed a person whilst four times over the limit, I wouldn't need post back with 'How dare you! I'll have you know I only allow myself one small drink at the beginning of the evening if I'm driving, and so far I've killed no-one, and I resent your assumptions about me.' Why would I?

A little story - A few years ago I got fed up with a small minority of people letting their dogs foul the pavements in our village, and in the kids' play area, day in day out, without picking it up. So I wrote an angry letter to the village magazine. The following month they were inundated by furious 'persecuted' dog owners with ridiculous tit for tat arguments, saying they were fed up with all the horrid spoilt precious children in the village, and how dare mothers allow small kids to pee in the bushes at the park, and if I condoned that then I was a hypocrite. And how dare I assume all dog owners were irresponsible and dirty and lazy?

What the fuck?!

I never once said it was ALL dog owners. In fact I distinctly referred to a small selfish minority. I have no problem with dogs (have 2). I don't think you can equate a toddler tiddling in the undergrowth because there's no public loo at the park with a giant dog turd freshly deposited outside your front door on a daily basis - can you? But no, on behalf of the selfish minority, what seemed like the entire dog- owning population of my village decided to round on me as if I had personally picked them out of a dog fouling identity parade. Frankly the only impression that left me with is that they doth protest too much.

Every time someone points out that some people are poor because they are stupid and lazy with a warped sense of entitlement, it is not necessary to get all indignant say 'I'm poor because I have a profoundly disabled child and I can't work. I suppose that makes me stupid and selfish too, does it?'

Just think how much more money would be in the pot to help people like you and Riven and with your disabled children, and carers to visit Riven's mum more regularly, if we didn't tolerate those who refuse to take any personal responsibility anything? That's what makes me sick, and it should make you sick, too.

I think you're missing peachy's point somewhat.

So many people on this thread have said something along the lines of "well the ones I see have x,y,z" - they are judging ALL of them without knowing the history. They are making assumptions on what they can see - without seeing behind the scenes.

Unless it's someone who's finances you are in charge of (ie your own, or someone for you have power of attorney) then there's absolutely no way of knowing who is there because of what reason.

I'm sure many of us genuine claimants needing a "hand up" have been heard to make jokes about it - which to an outsider could easily be construed as taking the piss of the system.

FAq sumamrises what I mean, yes

Foolish decisions?marrying for love not the FD who ahd the hots for me I guess....depends on your POV

other than that just a lot of bad luck, in fact we're better of becuase of what i thought was DH's foolish decision to start a luittle business a few years ago when working FT and suffering with severe health issues

Tiggy I guess the thing is- i've been here forever (OK 2001) and whilst you seem to have a decent balanced viewpoint, there are some that don't. i've been told directly I should be in a workhouse, had someonoe lay into DH for being a lazy scrounger using depression as an excuse when in fact he had 2 jobs (post was thankfully deleted by MN); been told that benefits claimants should ahve children removed- in fact pretty much every extreme stereitype the vast majority wouldn't dream really exists.

I live in a bit of a cloud land, where people are always really nice underneath and if they seem awry something ahs happened to put them there- one of the biggest things MN has taught me is that given anonymity and a shell, in fact people hold some pretty nasty ideas.

I get that most people would think i'm making good use of their taxes- in relaity we've been claiming mostly what, 6 weeks? Even now we don't get JSA / IS ? HB etc- just TC's and CA. But when people put 'benefits claimants' I 8feel* tarred whewther it'sintended or not.

Same as when people make comments about DLA cheats- you don't get osts saying 'obviously you only mean the actual cheats' you get lots of defensive ones from people who are claiming genuinely; or the annual 'my firneds son gets all sorts of SN provision and I know he's not really got SN' thread.

The reality is from the OP that the ones that apply to us even with a PT job are kids aprties and idling engine in traffic. We do go on holidays but camping and tbh this year they were paid for preredundancy, didn't see point of camping. We feed six for £125 so favourable wo OP and four of us have special diets indcludng both dairy and gluten free.

So clearly OP didn't refer to me and yet- guilt is there anyway.

Curiosity - I think it's pretty easy to judge whether someone has made a stupid or a sensible decision. Examples:

1)Having sex for purposes other than procreation? Birth control sensible, no birth control, stupid.

2)Unexpectedly pregnant, useless/absent partner, too young, no home, no money, no prospects?

Abortion - sensible.
Baby - stupid.

3)Totally against abortion?

See No. 1.

Don't believe in birth control because you are Catholic?

Saying no for around 4-5 days per month, with the aid of a thermometer - sensible
Saying yes on any old day, stupid

Have three hungry children and only a fiver in your purse for the next three days? Buying some jacket potatoes, beans, and milk, sensible. Buying fags and a scratch card - stupid.

Really wanting a baby even though you are only 16 and your boyfriend is a neanderthal arse who hits you, and smokes weed all day, and neither of you have a job or a decent place to live?

Going ahead and hoping for a miracle, stupid.

Leaving him, finding a job (anything) or going to college, GROWING UP A BIT and waiting five or ten years until a nice decent guy comes along, sensible.

Living in an overcrowded one bed flat when you already have two kids?

Go on the pill, sensible.
Have a third baby, stupid.

I could go on like this all day, but in a nutshell, just grasp the simple fact that the cart must not go before the horse.

No doubt I'll be flamed or 'oversimplifying'. Meh. Don't care. I'll just say that I bet 80% of the financially self-sufficient people on MN became so by following these basic rules, and 80% of the not so self-sufficient became so by not follwing at least one of them.

you are VASTLY over simplifying - in fact bordering on total ignorance with some of your post.

If only life was as black and white as that it would all be such a breeze

actually - I've rethought that - on all of your post - not some.

Aww TiggyR wouldn't life be great if everyone had half a brain and could work out perfect circumstances to their problems but they don't..and they make stupid decisions..and?...you going to spend your existance resenting them and their decisions?..way too much time on your hands

Sorry, should just amend that to 80% of people in RL, not on MN.

black and white doesn't exist in RL........just lots of shades of grey

(and no I'm not talking about ethnic groups )

not even as simple as having brain cells

The main thinga bout benefits isn't what got you there people make stupid decisions all day, we all do just most of us get away with it.

No, its the lack of choices to get you out of there that matter.

had your first abby after a quickie by the bins 3 years ago, grew upa bit and realise that you want to work-

where the feck is the funding for support in further education and training?

had a druggy idiotic dh but got off the things yourself? Oh look the economy just collpased, no jobs

Married someone you'd have bet your life on being a good 'un only for him to do a runner two yeras later? fancy retraining so you can combine work & kids? Sorry, you did a higher level qualification fifteen years ago- you can't get funding.

No, I realise there are a proportion of people for whom clear thinking and planning and aspiring to anything at all, will never be a realistic option. And they should have our support, for the sake of their children. But how we chose to give that support is the key to whether we go some way to actually solving the problem and breaking the cycle, or just perpetuating it.

Very true FAQ

on the leaving the car running when in a traffic jam....surely that is petrol savng, as constant on and off would cost more...or am I wrong?

Probably would depend on the jam?

Where we lived in Somerset an accident on the M5 would mean you didnt move for 3 hours (remembering one reason we moved.....), whereas a jam here means edging around for 20 minutes to get through the junctions.

why only support them for the sake of their children? Many of those people won't even have been told they can aspire to anything. It's a huge problem - poverty in this country is about an awful lot more than money - it's a lack of choice, a lack of knowledge, a lack of opportunities,.............a lack of understanding.

well...yeah, if you are standing for like 3 hours...better the engine off...lol...thought more about the usual jam where you slwoly keep moving ever so often, etc...

It's weigh it up thing I guess flral

However last year we were in a queue and engine was onwhen an emergency vehicle came tearing through- had engine been off don't think DH could have hgot out of the way in tiome, being hit static would ahve probably killed us all!.

So am a bit wary these days

I think I was plunged into poverty because of my stupid actions and felt hugely guilty that society ended up paying for my mistakes.

I should have had an easy life, I was in a stable relationship with a medical student who is now a surgeon. He adored me and I adored him. I was doing well in my degree and despite a very dysfunctional homelife I chose to fuck it up. I left stable man who loved me for the bad boy of the town. He treated me like a princess for a few years but then I got bored of him and his frusaration at me made him abusive. I took a good, if shallow man and turned him bad. I should have left, but I had access through him to a lot of money and a very extravgent life style and chose to stay and marry him. Fast forward a few years and his cruelty drove me to a breakdown and I lost everything and ended up homeless with a newborn baby.

To this day I am aware I bought this on myself, as soon as I was able I did as muc voluntary work as possible to pay back what I took out of the system. When I returned to work as a teacher I worked extra days voluntarily and turned turned down a pay rise knowing that I owed the system a lot.