to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

Sorry fc but that's crap

You did not make him abusive, he did

You shouldn't abuse people, full stop. There are no excuses (reasons maybe but they need treatment not excusing)

Don't give yourself the blame for that

horseshit flatcap

you don't turn a good man bad

cruelty is either there or it isn't

Of course he had it in him and he has proven again and again to be a quite useless partner, but we have remained close and as far as I know he has only ever been cruel to me. He is not blameless but I was not innocent and it was me that started the unpleasantness and someone can only take so much.

agree with the others - you didn't turn him that way.

And also - hindsight is a wonderful thing (with the choices that you mention that were your responsibility (the abuse NOT being one of them). If you knew then what you knew know I'm sure you'd have done things totally differently .

I could also have chosen not to marry him, ( the day before the wedding I had a cold rational discussion with a friend about the marriage). I could have chosen to leave, I could have chosen to stay with the sensible man who would have protected me and I may never have been ill in the first place.

Yes- FC, and when a normal person does that they walk away.

Choosing to not walk away but hit was ewntirely his decision.

FC, I have guilt issues I know and the only person I ever encountered who can outdo me is you. You have low self worth and you know it. I frequently opush DH to the edge and he walks away for a bit, and indeed vice versa. The majority of relationships have their moments FGS! But I would never ever hit him, and I beleive neither him me.

Maybe we will have to agree to disagree about the abuse, if I recognise my role in what happened I can take control and ensure it does not happen again.

But the fact remains that I was plunged into poverty because of my choices, not saying everyone does but in my case it was my own fault. Again by accepting that I can try and prevent it happening again

yes but that is the point that some of us are trying to make - you made (in your eyes) a mistake. It would have been so easy for people around you to judge you for your choices back then. They could see a snapshot of your life with some choices that some people would term "stupid" - however life is never black and white and your choice could have turned out ok - you (like many others who end up in bad relationships) had no way of knowing how it would go. You made a choice based on your life at that time.

Just like 100,000's of other people who make choices that may - in hindsight be not so great ones.

flatcap - I can see where you're coming from - I did used to lash out at DH, and he in turn was verbal and emotionally abusive towards me.

I used to try and rationalise it all by saying some of the blame for his abuse towards me lay on my shoulders.

Actually I've realised that's bullshit - we were both wrong - there were no excuses for it.

Thankfully we've moved on and both accepted that neither of us was to "blame" for the other person being abusive and now have a great relationship.

I am a firm believer that ifsomeone leavesarelationship forsomeone else (and I did it for dh) then the first relationship has faults. Sometimes theyare not fixable, sometimes they are I guess.

Had I not met DH he probably wouldn't have got ill either, because being in a marriage raised stress levels with the bysand their needs etc. I have discussed thhatwith him, but the likelyalternative based on his life then isthathe'd be holed up still with his Mum and brother in boredomville watching the years tick by. depression was an awful thing for him, but not as bad as missing ut on me and the bys apaprently would have been.

You can't predicte verything, you can only make the best choices on the info you have.

A vaguely related anecdote- all through my engagement to mr Moron before DH, and when DH was very ill, I used to think I should ahev married P, a chap I left when we 19. P was a great bloke,kind, etc etc etc.

Every time I met him we would still get on great which didnt help, and he and DH are in act similar in many ways.

Recently, I was at a Baptism and P was also there (several kids being doen togetehr- coincidence as far as bumping into someone in Somerset is ever a coincidence LOL)

He stood there and shouted at me for ruining his life in the same way as the wife who left him taking their child di a decade later , we were teens in college dating for 9 months.

Lucky fecking escape, but ahd I not bmped into him that day I still woudln't have known that. Dh without the complications was all I remembered.

It my be hindsight, but I knew at the time but can remember thinking to myself I dont love this man and he treats me shit but all the "stuff" and holidays make up for that. I was very cold and rational about it. To the extent that I had a chance to leave him with another man I loved. But that man could not offer me the financial status I wanted so I stayed.

Believe me I was judged at the time and had a very unpleasant fall from grace, but I do think that was meant to be. I am a much nicer person now.

Also to add to my rasndom list of anecdotes - moving in with DH after 3 months could ahve proved to be the stupidest thing I ever did, in fact it turned out to be the best.

Life without risks is unknown, we only notice those that go tits up

so therefore you've helped prove a point that "rational" "sensible" thoughts don't always override the irrational ones.

Most people screw up in life at some point, many are lucky and get through the screw ups without any major repercussions, the unlucky ones get all that life can throw at them and end up feeling like it's their fault because they made a bad choice and they wouldn't be in that position if they hadn't made the "stupid" choice in the first place.

No way of knowing that - the man you adored, and who adored you could have been another failed relationship a few years down the line. Of course you'll never know - but that's life with all it's shades of grey - not the black and white that tiggy thinks.

FAQ -Of course not only for the children, but what I meant is, I'm not one of those hard hearted twats that says leave them all to starve/rot it's the parents' own stupid fault! I understand all about the depressing cycle of poverty and dependence - the lack of opportunities and lack of aspiration, lack of understanding, and the feeling that they are looking in on another world which will be forever out of their grasp. And believe me, I understand, on all sorts of levels, why so many young girls from disadvantaged backgrounds choose (and it usually always a choice, whether a conscious or unconscious one) to have babies they cannot support, financially, or otherwise, with men who are worse than useless as fathers and partners. But I truly believe that at some point some tough love is needed to nip certain depressing behaviour patterns in the bud. Too much patronising tolerance is not helpful in the long run.

And Peachy, yet again you gave me a load of examples that were not typical of the type of behaviour I'm talking about. (apart from the bike-shed girl!) I've already clearly stated that we should be helping those who have tried to do everything by the book, but have come unstuck through no fault of their own.

Well I'm glad you're not one of my friends
I'm living on next to nothing at the moment until I can get my finances sorted out with the fucker who claimed to love me

Oh, Tiggy> you didn't think druggy girl in my example made bad choices then?

Sorry,half having a [LOL] to myself

Think I know what you are trying to say, that some people had a hand in their problems and some didn't, and that is true it's just as with all things in life only a few are at the extremes of either end- after all I could not have had any kids- and most are somewhere in between

But I do see that you are trying to be kind to those of us who have had bad luck, I can see that

what kind of tough love?...obviously it's very easy on benefits isn't it

I am not saying though that even though I may have made stupid decisions I did not deserve help. I am lucky to live in a society that gave me time and chance to get back on my feet rather than rushing me back into work. Infact by giving me time I am probably more useful to society.

But I do have a feeling of guilt and the sense of a debt that needs to be paid back.

You paid the debt by sorting yuirself out

OTOH running yourself back down again won't help anyone.

Stop being so ahrd on yourself missus,you're a good person and I think you know that dep down. Nobody is erfect (even me- hides halo)

"We are fortunate in this country to not have any truly poor people" curiosity what on Earth makes you assert that? It is patently not true. We have a benefits net to help people which is fantastic, but some people slip through the net or aren't able to even climb up that far.
I know it suits the DM agenda to claim that all British malnourished children are in poverty due to feckless parents, but this is not always the case.

4 million children live in poverty in this country. They are often invisible unless you work directly with them in the public sector.

its the difference between absolute andrelative poverty

however despitewhat some media like to suggest relative poverty isnt about having a normalrathre than flat screen tv, its ofen about living in a B&B here you have to top up the cost from your IS cozthe hb doesnt cover it and having to walk the streets all day coz the B&B iclosed and having chips for lunch becuse you've only got £3, two mouths to feed and nowhere to cook the cheaper healthier options

You might not starve to death but its damned miserable and there are very real health and saftey aspects (and I dont mean he tld me to use thewrong sort of ladder H&S)

The Secret of Self-Control or why I will not be buying the Maserati if my house burns down.

Ok, time to put my 2 cents in....

People forget that poverty in the UK is nothing compared to developing nations. Poor people in developing countries don't have enough food, let alone anything else.

It's a hard question to answer op, in any case, people in 1st world countries are used to bbetter standards of living and want the same things as everyone else. I can not call them poor though, as in respect to other places, even people on benefits have quite a good life.

Hello Iwanttolearn, can I borrow you 2 cents please