to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

lol innit Peachy

Can't believe you Cherylcole, you, madam, are (almost) worse than Hitler for having a go at Riven. I would've thought that most people who post regularly know precisely why Riven doesn't work out of the home. And she has a PHD so ner, she doesn't need to go the library, she is the library.

Hmmm, I'm probably regarded as the lowest of the low in the OPs opinion, Im a jobless teenage mum whose partner isn't even living in the UK atm.
However I can see in small way what she means. At my young mum's baby group there is perhaps 20 mums. I'd say about a dozen of these mums smoke. First of all I don't understand how they can as some of them are as young as 14 (I think you have to be 18 to smoke no?) Also quite a few of the babies are dressed in nike trainers, addidas tracksuits etc. I know these women's backgrounds, they are on benefits and so are their parents. They can't have a lot of money, yet I can't afford to pay for DD to wear expensive clothes, its asda and primark for her!

But who am I to judge? I may be in the same situation as them in regards to the whole 'having a kid young' thing but I'm lucky enough to have supportive parents, a good education behind me and good educational prospects (a place a very good university to study a highly respected viactional course in October). My support networks are good and I have the added advantage of an end in sight to my 'career' as a 'feckless teenage mother'. When I try to visualise myself in 10 or 15 yeaars I have good reason to believe I won't be still living with my parents, living of benefits or working for minimum wage, I mix in social circles where, mainly my contemporaries won't have even thought of living of benefits, thats not to say it won't happen but going into adulthood not viewing it as a career choice must have its advantages.

OP the 'poor people' you are talking about are a very small minority of people, they are the people who aren't particularly bright, they don't have any ambition and they lack the foresight to see that spending money on cigarettes and choosing to FF for no real reason might be bad choices, they can't budget very well and aren't very responsible. And they exist throughout society, as the the bankers who spend £20 million when they only have £10 million, the middle class family's whose outgoings are £70,000 when they only bring in £50,000 and yes, the benfits claimants who prioritise their cigarettes over new shoes for their kids, who buy gel nails for themselves instead of buying fresh fruit etc.

I really don't understand fake nails at all...

But riven, why start smoking? especially people of my generation (Im 19) its drilled into us from as soon as we start school how bad it is and its so expensive, it's literally burning money! Besides I still don't know where you buy cigarettes from when you're only 14/15 etc, I got ID'd when I bought a lottery ticket!

atm I am living quite frugally; I am a mum and a student, I get 20 child benefit and 50 child tax credits. I am getting housing benefit but will be getting back into full time work as soon as I qualify.

70 per week = an income of 280 per month

I have to pre pay for electricity and gas, (60 per month)
broadband for my studies etc, (30 per month)
food groceries and nappies, (100 per month)
mob phone, (5 per month)
water, (25 per month)
TV. (11 per month)
child's family investment scheme (10 per month)
plus 60 per month repaying a debt and Oh look I don't have any money left, in fact thats 20 pounds overdrawn.

I try to walk everywhere to stay fit and avoid paying for the bus/tube unless we're going to an activity for my son which is on the other side of town.

Thankfully - I know that in March next year this period of my life is over and I will start a whole new career and hopefully have loads of spare cash. Some people will have to struggle harder than I.

Yes sometimes I act like i'm flush - but sometimes I need to pretend to have a life!!!

Ooo Hello. You lot been having fun whilst Ive been away (still am but snatching 5 mins pc time).

Same old bollox about the feckless benefit wasters then? I would yawn but its usually quite interesting.

Riven ignore, ignore, ignore!!!!!

Mwah

Peachy and Posie - I don't think I'm especially rich either, just comfortable/affluent. Compared to some people I know I'm positively lowly. But I do have a rather large house, in a rather nice area, (worth around 1 million even though I'm seventy miles outside London) privately educated children, a brand new BMW on the drive, a two carat diamond on my finger, and foreign holidays in good hotels every year. The 50% tax band hasn't kicked in yet, but when it does, we will be paying it. Try telling a single mum on benefits in a council tower block that I'm not rich. It's all relative.

Riven - so you were only refering to celebs, bankers and MP's when you said 'rich people'. Ah. Then perhaps you should have just said 'Celebs, bankers and MP's. Once again, I thought so much of the bile directed at the OP was because she dared to lump all 'poor people' together without having any understanding of the different varieties, categories, attitudes and circumstances of the poor. Even the phrase 'poor people' was in itself considered offensive. But you can bandy the phrase 'rich people' about, without irony that's just fine.

Tiggy - try telling practically all of us you're not rich!

at
nearly all of my friends started smoking before they were 14 when i was a gal. It was considered really cool back then. Not a problem to buy fags at the local newsagent - we lived in a village and we children were often sent out to buy parents cigarettes
I smoked for a few months aged 12 but couldn't get the hang of it - and i was from a very 'respectable' group of children . I was the poorest of my friends probably but we were the children of teachers and sales managers and stuff.

You cannot compare how smoking is handled amongstthe young these days. And once children start it can be hard to give up. Three of my siblings still smoke and of those two have children who now smoke too.

it's all about keeping up with the jones' really isn't it, all this buying everything and saving nothing. whether OP's friends are on benefits or not, they just want to show others what they can 'afford' by flashing it in people's faces.

haven't found any of it offensive, as it's obviously something that's seriously getting to the OP (got to let off steam!).

many people on benefits do have the cash to splash though, it just depends on your individual circumstances. I have a relative that was on JSA for as long, but has now decided to get a job for whatever reason but still managed to afford a mortgage and pay for the upkeep of his car, pay all the bills etc. So it can be done on benefits (apparently).

tIGGYrR I would settle for comfortable.as I am sure many on here would.I would be hugely delighted if we were 'comfortable',that is what I want.We have no experience of that,either working and as now when not working and won't be when I return to Nursing either.But,I expect that is our fault.?

tiggy, if you don't think that's rich, you're weird! Is it because you've only got the one beemer when your mates may have 3?

that isn't meant to be read with attitude by the way - just wondering...

my sister nannies for a family who live in similar circs (you may be them!) and they don't think they're rich, but to our family, they are STONKING rich (and I come from a £250k house, inline for £125k inheritance etc backgroud so hardly shoddy)

Fortunately for DS, I can make the appearance of having money (note appearance - is not the same as actually having it!) so he doesn't get picked on for being the only child of a single parent on benefits in his class (known fact), but thats because I am very clever in my spending even though I keep getting dumped on by the benefits office (they stopped my money and now won't backpay all because they can - they were in the wrong and they don't have to make up for it.... imagine how fast they'd be on to me if I'd been paid too much!)

I think the OP was referring to specific examples of people that she knows. It is clearly unfair to make sweeping comments about people on benefits or 'the rich'. Academically tortured seems to be talking a lot of sense. When certain people make seemingly bizzare choices about how to spend their benefits, a lot of it may be put down to general lack of education/ experience/ expectation.
Tiggy- I think you might find that a lot of people on here might disagree with your definition of yourself as not rich! Of course, there are always people who have more!!

IMHO, Tiggy would be defined as rich. She doesn't fall into the 'average' bracket.Sorry.

I made no reference to anything being anyone's fault. I just objected to the fact that there are thousands (if not hundreds of thousands of posts) on MN with people getting very aggressive/defensive with others who dare to make reference to 'poor people' or to suggest that SOME people on benefits do little or nothing to help themselves, whilst the same people are very happy to make huge sweeping unfounded generalisations about 'the rich'. It isn't just one isolated comment on this thread, it happens all the time. I find it hypocritical.

Lewis and Looby - I said in an earlier post that I am, what many people would consider to be rich. (but it is all relative). I didn't outline my personal circumstances but I did say we paid 40% tax. Two people (Peachy and Posie) said they didn't consider me rich. I only mentioned all of the above so they could get some frame of reference, not because I was being smug!

TiggyR - you are sooo right.

Sometimes people who are deprived smoke/drink because they have no other form of escape in their life. You can even view it as a treat for some. Tis true.

WTF is the point in this thread??

You are steriotyping ALL people on benefits, you assume that everybody has fake nails, hair extensions and buys loads of beauty products - why do you think this?

I know a girl who is a single mother with 4 children and is on benefits - she lives in a 4 bedroom new build house which is paid for by the council along with the council tax, in addition to this she receives £400 a week in benefits. And yeah this does bother me, my DP and I both work full time (although I am on mat leave atm) and yeah I'd love it if we could both give up work to stay and home with DD all day but thats not realistic for us. IMO if there are people on benefits who are actually able to go out and work, then I believe they should get a job and stop taking tax-payers money when they are able to earn money themselves. However its not fair to assume that all people on benefits live in the exact same way.

The first thing on your list of 'annoyances' is 'smoking/drugs' - so ALL people on benefits smoke and take drugs?! And 'fresh cut fruit' - yip thats pretty appalling, perhaps they should just buy loads of crisps and chocolate bars instead? I dont know about anyone else but I've never switched my engine off while sitting in a traffic jam - who knows maybe Im rich and dont even know it!

Sorry didnt mean to rammble on so much but just cant really see the point in this ridiculous thread

I confess to not reading all of this thread, but all I can add is that I really hope one day life doesnt kick the OP too much up the arse.

3 years ago I was happily married with a mortgaged house and a young son. Then we sold the house to pay off debts and live a little better. We were in rented with a good area, with a good income for 2 years and had another child.

Tonight I sit here a single mum juggling two kids and a 16hr a week job whilst living in a council house.

I have £20 a week to "live" on. and yes, I smoke. and yes, I enjoy a glass of wine. And yes, I claim an awful lot in working/child tax credits (though not housing benefit at present as the council rent is very low thankfully)

You want to know how most of these parents on council estates and on benefits live? Off catalogues and Provident loans. £300 on a catalogue is £4.50 a week, interest free for a year - even cheaper if you pay for a longer term, but pay interest. Provident? Ask for £100 you can have it the next day. Ok, you pay back £150, but its only at £5 a week.

Theres something nice about getting stuff when you are living on the shit. I paid £40 to get my hair done today - all from my overdraft, and my birthday meal out will be on Saturday too. But you know what? I tried the other way and it kicked me in the teeth, so now I am quite happy to get the benefits and work very few hours and go overdrawn. I dont hurt anyone else with my actions.

Natt82 - Every time someone critisises irresponsible/naive/lazy/feckless people choosing to produce children they can't support and then live on benefits as a lifestyle choice there is always someone like you (or thirty people like you ready to jump up and say 'Don't judge us - you don't know what it's like - you don't know my circumstances and how hard I tried to do everything the right way round.'

But what you don't get is that those posts were not, and never are, directed at people like you. Not people with severely disabled children. Not people struck down with mental illness. Not people made redundant and consequently evicted. Not people whose partners fuck off several years into a joint decision to start a (planned) family. Most of us are proud to live in a country that can give a leg up to people who have hit a rough patch in spite of all their efforts. Most of us do not begrudge the money spent to keep you and children housed and fed and safe, until you are able get back on track - which you will. And most of us do not expect you to don sackcloth and ashes whilst you are at the mercy of the tax payer. But people who struggle to make ends meet, both partners working all hours, with no quality of life and the guilt attached to having the babies the planned for and waited for, shoved into constant childcare, just to eek out an independent existence can get a tad cheesed off when they see others leading an equally comfortable or more comfortable life doing nothing at all, and letting the state pay. And who can blame them? You need not take it personally - any of you, if you know you've done the best you could with the hand you were dealt. If you made the most sensible, appropriate choices. That's all.

When people moan about 'scroungers' and 'layabouts' and 'social and moral irresponsibility' and 'dependency culture' that's exactly what they mean. they don't mean you. There is a distinct difference. Constantly leaping to the defence of every Jeremy Kyle candidate is blinkered and counter-productive, and allows the horrible cycle of poverty/dependency to continue. It never ceases to amaze me how many 'birth control failures' there are in this country. there must be more girls claiming 'birth control failure' than there were adoptions and terminations of babies with teen mothers forty years ago, when there was no flippin' birth control Let's get real - shall we?