to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

But expat, we can't victimise the man in his big estate in the country quite as well as the single Mum in the big estate.

Ah. So it's a bunch of banking fat cats (probably don't even amount to 0.5% of the people who work in banks, never mind 0.5% of the people classed as 'rich' in this whole country. And the rich and famous, of course, again who also amount to a miniscule percentage of the population.

I am, what no doubt many of you would consider to be 'rich'. No-one in my whole life has ever given me anything for nothing. Neither do we exploit any tax loop-holes to greedily/cynically keep our money from the poor disadvantaged working classes. Only the mega-rich (or the canny self-employed) can pull that off. The rest of us pay 40% on everything.
If we are not to categorise the 'poor' and insult them by jumping to conclusions, then let's do the same for the 'rich' please.

Tiggy, I don't think it's the number of rich but the money they're worth en masse.

If you're only paying 40% then you're probably not what I'd call rich. When did 50% come in?

Rich to me is a home in excess of a few million.

How much are the tax payers banks worth? How many salaries did that bail out save? Greater good and all that, but we do pay huge bonuses to the same arseholes that risked this countries banking and financial system.

Tiggy I don't know your sit but it's statistically unlikely I would think you rich- my sisyter isn't rich but has just bought her own half a mil house for cash. Mind,the 'we never got anything for free' stuff she spouts (not saying yours is) is dubious: they may have had to repay laons etc to the in laws but they were exempt the massive inter4est rates etc anyone else would have been lumbered with.

I suppose id on't care too much except I hate being thought of as feckless. I did work for many yers, until I couldn't, in a damned good jon and even then the time i've had since studying (a year) is my first time completely a SAHM. Dh has been redundant since June, and works part time. Taht's not feckless!. In fact, I worked out how much CA paid me when I was registered for both (DH is to the oldest atm) and that amouunted to a whopping 17p per hours . It'd be double now for one kid, way hey

We do get YTCs etc but you know, that's why we worked all those years that we possibly could. Dh's 16 hours part time earns him that right, but then I think why not, he gets off his bum as best hest he can, as indeed he should.

And then there are people like my parents- their story is very well known but to sumamrise when dad retires in December they'll be on HB and income support. Were they feckless? Nope, Dad worked and saved and had a bloody fantastic pension that he was assured was the best available- until 15 or so years ago when it was sold to an American firm and closed. Started saving again for a decade, same bloody thing. because it wsn't a direct rsult of the pensions collapse they don't qualify for compensation but their MP has secured them a payout (them reads as all the victims) but only a share when the terms are agreed. So the longer the very youngest can fight, the more of them will die and the greater the sahre- and I doubt dad will ever see more than £2k of 50 years work.

That's just the people I know. I;ve known through work people with no even seeming idea of working but invariably there were other issues there- alcohol a big one, and I bet if we had screened them most would have had some degree of LD. Not all of course, but many.

So where are these feckless people that soemone on MN always has as their neighbour? Oh there's a few for sure but not loads. many people see themselves as the archetype and anyone else as a fool- my sister certainly does; asd doesn't exist, childcare is easy t come by (despite the fact she gets it from my mum who is sick of being bullied into being there all the time). other people, like myself,present everything in public as A-OK and the kids do ahev everything and the like but I don't show people the times I wake at 3 adding numbers so that my bank account reads 2p and not -2p. It's a dignity thing. Nobody I have day to day contact in RL except my aprents knows we struggle financially. If they give prizes in Heaven mine's for putting on a brave face and smiling.

Riven, Is your DH's uncle single? Just a thought.....

So true, Riven, money attracts money. Don't get me started on the banks, I have close to 2k in charges which they've imposed in the past year, the claims are all on hold pending High Court judgement (what are the chances of David overpowering Goliath in THAT particular debacle?), meanwhile my financial situation is in ruins and unlikely to improve, thank you H*ax, We Take More From You

I have only read the first page of this post,and whilst OP's comments are very harsh and offensive(particularly the ff bit and fresh fruit!!) I do have a couple of friends(or associates i should say) who are on benefits who boil my blood as they feed thier kids utter crap,let them run around with holes in thier shoes etc whilst they can afford to smoke,drink every night,have takeaways every night,go out drinking most weekends and have designer clothing,false nails,sunbeds etc. but I think that is different,Im not saying 'poor' people shouldn't treat themselves but when they put thier own needs before thier childrens that is selfish.

Fwiw i probably come under the 'poor' category in that we are on a very low income and get tax credits.i cant afford my hair done regularly,dont have false nails etc,dont smoke or drink BUT i do provide my children (and myself) with FRESH CUT FRUIT,have takeaways at least once a week as there are so many offers on takeaways in our area i sometimes find it cheaper than cooking,and i always make a point of giving my kids a decent birthday and try to have parties for them. does that make me as bad as OP's friend??? oh and i also use those plug in air fresheners as i have dogs

I wouldn't class myself as poor, in debt and penniless maybe, but the last time I had my hair done I went to the local college to the fast track students (older and wiser) and had a full head highlights and cut for $15 (pound sign not on this PC).

i havent read this whole thread but am glad OP saves money by not buying her kids toys ... at least she still has internet access. sounds like she's got her priorities straight

I didn't think the rich paid 40% on everything. Isn't it just 40% after, (roughly) 40K and a bit more after 100K? They still have tax-free allowances and only 20% to pay up to that, which is rather more than the average wage.

Unlike my parents who are pensioners and my BIL who has a low income. Apart from the allowance they have seen their tax liability double under Gordo.

Although I do admit it would suck earning just over threshold and seeing your pay-rise disappear!

serajen If it is causing you finacial hardship then press ahead with the claim, that is one of the loopholes if you can prove the £2k would make a huge difference to your current position, ie you're in debt.

In airness internet access is a godsend these days for anyone- as well as support (and that matters) it's often the source of jobs, offers on purchases, internet shopping ( a great thing if you haven't got a car, better that than shopping at the local Spar if you're rural and only eating fruit and veg that have sat weeks in the trays and trherefore are virtually nutrition free).

But I admore anyone who puts a priority on thier kids needs- parties etc are important, you can't replace those childhood memories and I would always at someone who considered that for a first line budget attack. After all, birthdays aren't a surprise- like Chriostmas we know when they're coming and can put cash aside.

at cut price salon- used to have that where we used to live, however a cut and colour cost me £60+ yesterday which is far less than city prices (there's a thread in chat to show it was monney well spent). It wasn't cheap but desperately needed doing and just meant some juggling / saving of birthday money.

As for money attracting money, well maybe but it always made me laugh when our flat got broken into they took everything they perceived as valuable which may have raised £500 down the local pub but we breathed a sigh of relief they hadn't touched the goose that laid our golden eggs which was there for anyone to see or take but the thieves were to thick to see beyond the end of their noses.
Wealth is available to anyone with access to a library and the will to work hard and succeed.

hi again... ,

just to pickup one of your points of criticism for now:

re not buying my kids any toys...

there are birthdays, there's christmas, there are a whole lot of relatives and friends who buy stuff EVERY TIME they visit + there are presents we get from elsewhere (free books from surestart e.g.). my kids have shitloads of toys, there is absolutely NO NEED for us to buy any.

imo it's all about getting the balance right: too many toys result in spoilt children who don't appreciate what they have.

it's not about being tight, it's about wanting the best for my kids.

'Wealth is available to anyone with access to a library and the will to work hard and succeed. '

almost

Wealth is available to anyone with access to a library and the will, ability, health and time to work hard and succeed.

You pop ds1 in the library in a few years- he might want to succeed (he does) but chances are he'll be stimming in the corner when you go back for him.

Also of course is the basic fact that weath is not available to everyone. For if it were, who would teach the schools / care for the babies / care for the old people? Those people have to exist as their roles are essential, so a society that made all weathy would be unsustainable.

lucky old you nyborn, we're not in a surestart area, and have no relatives close by.

But if the crummy jobs paid a decent wage then there'd be lots more people willing to do them.

FWIW i agree with the OP.

Not 100% as i believe the peopple she is talking about are fiddling the system or/and incredibly far in debt (average debt approx £32000 isn't it?).

But then in general i think people are very wasteful (energy, water, food, resources, time) - we have been accepting of it for many years, it takes a lot for people to change.